Pictured: fake news according to western “leftists”
They’re not fake, just besides the point. We shouldn’t purity test a country that’s being invaded, regardless of whether it’s Palestine or Ukraine. Granted Ukraine has less reason for radicalism than Palestine does, but they make up that with CIA interference.
We shouldn’t purity test a country that’s being invaded, regardless of whether it’s Palestine or Ukraine
An absurd thing to say when one of the countries is being genocided with western support and the other is run by actual seig-heiling nazis who were doing ethnic cleansing also with western support. To equivocate between the two is nonsensical, It’s the geopolitical version of equivocating between kicking in a door as part of a robbery and kicking in a door as part of a hostage rescue operation. But if you really must reduce everything down to black and white principles about what is and isn’t acceptable, try this one: There is never a good reason to side with nazis.
Also, I curse whoever came up with the thought-terminating cliche that is “purity testing”. In cooking and chemistry, in metallurgy and biology and a million other things, you need “purity testing” to achieve anything, because it turns out that making a habit of disregarding basic standards consistently leads to failure and disaster. I don’t cook with dirt, I don’t build out of bubblegum, I dont make tea with metal shavings and I don’t give critical support to genocidal goose-steppers.
I dislike the way “purity test” is used to shut down any expectation that we can or should demand better from our leadership. However, when you start purity testing a country collectively like this and ignore the realities of what a defeat or victory would mean for the people living there that’s not good.
The Nazi battalions are not the entirety of what Ukraine is as a nation.
The Nazi battalions are not the entirety of what
UkraineGermany is as a nation.Yeah they’re only in charge, hardly anything important. But you’re right, I have changed my mind and now think that ten years of government-sponsored ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine is an acceptable price to pay for keeping the savage Muscovite on his toes
Germany didn’t have a Jewish president.
This isn’t to say that absolves Ukraine of all it’s issues, but it’s not Germany.
It is a proxy for an empire with even bigger bloodstains on its hands than Nazi Germany. The fact that NATO, and the US particularly, supports Ukraine to the point of making this war continue at all, rather than ending the same year it started, is evidence that the long term goals of empire are served by meeting Russia in the front. You might think it’s not fair to judge Ukraine for the actions or intentions of their supporters, but ultimately I’m concerned with the end of imperialism and capitalism; to “support” Ukraine (which in practice means supporting the military industrial complex) just means supporting my own oppression as a subject of American empire.
You’ll find that it’s the “centrists” that most support Ukraine. The far-left and far-right tend to be the ones that don’t. Even then support for Ukraine has been quite muted. This suggests that support for Ukraine is based more on a naive belief in democratic values and multilateralism than some furtherance of Western aims.
That said, I don’t think the war started that way. I think Biden willfully created this war to give America leverage over Europe and to rally the American populace around the flag. I also think NATO expansion into Ukraine (aside from being unrealistic) would not be a good thing. Regardless though I think support for Ukraine is driven by people who still have faith in the values of the west rather than just the might of the west.
Germany didn’t have a Jewish president.
You are saying that ethnicity gives you an automatic unbreakable political convictions? Good, i’m very glad all the Slavic neonazis are the figment of my imagination, it would be impossible to support ideology that literally wanted to exterminate their people! Not to mention certain Jewish prime minister straight up publicly whitewashed Hitler of holocaust.
As I said, that wasn’t meant to be an argument. Just to illustrate that a find and replace approach isn’t appropriate.
Ukraine and Nazi Germany are wildly different.
America had a black president, we’re still doing a fucking genocide dude. Hell, there were Jewish Holocaust participants. Stop grasping at straws and look at the obvious reality in front of your face.
I honestly believe that ethnic minorities in Eastern Ukraine are 100% better off under the current Russian military occupation than they were under the NATO backed fascist government that came to power via coup in 2014. I also honestly believe that just about everyone in Ukraine will undoubtedly be better off if Ukraine concedes that territory to Russia as soon as possible rather than continue to throw away lives into a meat grinder to stall an inevitable conclusion.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think it’s 100%, and the people there should have a say in the matter. If the people there wanted that they could easily have hopped the border, the fact that they didn’t voluntarily do so means something.
The ones who did in Crimea by voting to join Russia weren’t recognized internationally. In general though, if you’re in the middle of Ukraine and your family has lived there for centuries, even when Western backed fascists take over the country and start shelling you in the civil war, would you easily make the decision to leave for Russia instead of staying, trying to survive however you can? I think if people legitimately were invested in preserving the Ukrainian state’s territorial integrity, the press gangs wouldn’t be abducting people with vans, and the militias for the LPR and DPR wouldn’t have been able to recruit much of anyone at all.
In Crimea they, when surveyed, said they would prefer to join Russia. That isn’t the same as voting to join Russia. It was non-binding and people don’t vote the same when something’s non-binding, sometimes they just vote out of protest regarding the state of the country. This isn’t to say Crimeans didn’t want to join Russia, we don’t know. Nobody knows.
I think if I was in a situation that would warrant Russian military intervention, and Russia was so close by, I would leave instead of hoping for Russian occupation.
I don’t really know about the press gangs.
I don’t know how trustworthy any information about the LPR/DPR recruitment numbers could be. They have an interest in presenting high numbers, and there’d be no way to distinguish between Russian citizens and Ukrainian citizens from the outside.
Ukraine loses the war within the next 24 months since it has outlived its usefulness, the US pivots to the Pacific, and Europe doesn’t have the capacity to support it. What do you think happens when these reasonable moderates wearing Black Suns and Tottenkopf patches, armed to the teeth by NATO with any kind of weapon you can think of, are no longer fighting Russia?
Ever hear of operation Cyclone?
You say that as if NATO is giving Ukraine any more than the bare minimum weapons it needs. This ain’t Israel.
Okay so what? They’re getting javelin missile launchers, tanks, drones, and who knows what else. Do you think the Azov Battalion would otherwise have access to that level of weaponry?
!RemindMe 9/11 2: Ukraine in the Membrane
Your posts keep getting downvoted and I wonder where do they all come from? I wouldn’t expect Lemmy.ml to be high on the CIA’s manipulation list.
Most westerners, even people who otherwise have good positions vis a vis Palestine and other foreign policy issues, have a very David vs Goliath view of politics where they reflexively support the small side against the big side. Russia is a big country invading Ukraine, a smaller country. Russia is more powerful than Ukraine. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth (even when the meek in question are a US backed far right country that venerates its nazi heroes like Bandera). This is idealism, but it is widespread and organic. It’s only astroturfed in the way that support of capitalism is also astroturfed.
Idk about .ml but grad and hex make MSM occasionally, and it is what you’d expect.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
So many reasons this is funny
-You apparently believe in evil, like a child
-You don’t know what fascism is
-Theres no way you can define the word dictatorship
-You seem to think that someone on the internet who doesn’t believe that Enemy Country is literally Mordor is part of “the problem” (what problem? The problem of other countries existing in a way that displeases you?)
Overall I give it a 2/10, deeply stupid and infantile, try throwing in a Star Wars reference next.
Bro they have literally had the same man in power for the last 25 years. The elections are far too one sided to be legitimate. They enforce heavy military propoganda. They have wealthy oligarchs while they working class is barely scraping by. And they have been trying to forcefully take land from other countries for years at the expense of citizens of both sides. Please explain how everything I said isn’t true, or would you rather just hurl empty insults again instead and make yourself look even more ridiculous
Bro they have literally had the same man in power for the last 25 years.
Wrong, they have a federal government system that you naively think is “one guy runs everything” like a marvel movie: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Government_of_Russia
The elections are far too one sided to be legitimate
According to some random on the internet? Then what does that say about, for example, Ukraine, where opposition parties have been openly banned and elections have been canceled altogether? What possible reason is there to support such a government?
They enforce heavy military propoganda
What does it mean to “enforce heavy military propoganda”? You mean like we have at NFL games, only scary and foreign? Literally what do the thought-terminating cliches you’re using even mean, and how do they not apply to us?
They have wealthy oligarchs while they working class is barely scraping by
So like…they’re a capitalist country, but scaaary and foreign?
And they have been trying to forcefully take land from other countries for years at the expense of citizens of both sides
Other country, singular, because that’s how warfare works. I’m not sure if you realize that’s how warfare works, but it is. It’s weird of you to just say countries plural as if you’re not expecting anyone to fact check you. In fact, that’s kind of how you guys talk about any country the US tells you to hate in general: the strongest possible existential condemnation in the vaguest and most
possible terms.Please explain how everything I said isn’t true, or would you rather just hurl empty insults again instead and make yourself look even more ridiculous
Sorry, I don’t entertain the vague fever dreams of de facto nazi supporters who hold childlike beliefs about good and evil that they selectively apply to entire countries. Start talking in concrete terms if you want to be taken seriously, or would you rather just lean on empty cable news-ass buzzwords again and make yourself look even more like a hysterical dorkass?
For the record you seem to believe I support America, I don’t.
He maybe doesn’t have the control of the entirety of the country, but has been the central figure for 25 years. That simply doesn’t happen legitimately in a country that isn’t basically a utopia, and we all know Russia is far from that.
No I meant other countries, they have been manipulating the border along Georgia as well, just not as forcefully.
I urge you to watch some of their military parades and festivals, they are straight up dystopian.
By all means, keep deluding yourself into thinking Russia is somehow on the right side of this, just don’t be surprised when the world keeps get worse.
The fact that my original comment was straight up deleted speaks volumes about this community. I was banned from reddit for speaking out against ultra conservatives (in America specially) so I came here. Turns out this community is literally no better than the other side
Putin gained mass support because he sided with the nationalists that kicked out the western imperialists that were looting the remnants of the former USSR’s industry. The 90s were a period of violent reaction, devastation, and incredible poverty for the whole of Eastern Europe. The liberals want to capitulate to the west, and repeat the 90s. The nationalists want to retain the status quo, where the wealthy Russian capitalists retain their hold but without handing over everything to western imperialism. The leftists want socialism again, and this number is rising dramatically:
Trying to understand complex geopolitical issues through a frame of “good vs evil,” rather than a class analysis, pushes you into all forms of absurd contradictions. You need to understand, in Russia hardly anyone supports the liberals, so the nationalists are seen as the best thing by most people outside of the growing Russian left. That’s why Putin keeps winning elections.
Final tidbit, leftists are far better than fascists, and it isn’t even close to comparable. The idea that we are “no better than fascists” just because we disagree with your analysis is wrong, the left stands for progress and the end of western imperialism, we support the working class, not the imperialists and the capitalists.
Back in the USSR
You realize these things are true in Ukraine, in some cases more than even in Russia? And Ukraine was doing ethnic cleansing in the civil war for 8 years before Russia invaded, too, so if you want to apply this childish “I support the enemies of countries that do evil things” view instead of materialism, you could just as easily land on the conclusion that supporting Russia against fascist (vibes based definition) Ukraine is correct.
If you did a materialist analysis and try to figure out what the forces at play are, which classes stand to gain from different outcomes, and why the ruling class interest of Western imperialist states are aligned the way they are, you’d probably arrive at a much better conclusion though.
I have tried to do my research and inform myself about the current situation. I am aware Ukraine has its issues, but I have not come across anything that justifies the current conflict. If you have evidence otherwise, i earnestly beg you to share it, and I will consider it as unbiasedly as I can
Here’s a report from CNN showing what the Ukrainian government was doing to ethnic minorities in the east during the civil war, 6 years before Russia invaded.
Russia being messed up doesn’t contradict the meme at all. People in the imperial core can be happy, every time comrades in Russia (or Ukraine) have a success against their government and their oligarchy. But the best thing every anti-imperialist can do, is fight the imperialists they can actually fight: the ones in their own country. If you’re in a NATO country, that means your priority should be to fight NATO and the US oligarchs who benefit from it’s constant wars all over the world. If workers on both sides just continue to fall for the propaganda, they’ll never stop killing each other.
I’m not just randomly claiming, that this strategy is what works best. Have you heard of Lenins revolutionary defeatism? It’s the method, that made the revolution possible.
Have you heard of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht? They were both killed for their anti-war stance and their commitment against national-chauvinism. Liebknechts famous line was: “the main enemy stands at home”, by which he meant the national oligarchs and imperialists profiting from the war.
Why are you convinced that your moral enemies are also your political enemies?
And why is it fascist?
Hollywood isn’t real life.
