The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.

And yet… linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as “not growing the userbase”

  • green@feddit.nlEnglish
    4910·
    3 days ago

    Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.

    From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn’t care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn’t care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.

    Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.

    This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you’re going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.

    The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.

    • MintyFresh@lemmy.world
      34·
      3 days ago

      I switched to Linux mint because I don’t want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won’t anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I’m as happy as a clam in shit.

      An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.

      • green@feddit.nlEnglish
        9·
        3 days ago

        Linux Mint is a great distro, and I’m happy it works for you.

        In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don’t care much for the terminal - but you made it through.

        The people that didn’t make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.

        P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn’t completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.

          • Lunar_Voyager@lemmy.world
            6·
            2 days ago

            I just imagined a shady looking dude in a dark alley saying in a gruff voice “I got all the distros you need man, check these out” while opening his trench coat and revealing hundreds of flash drives.

        • Russ@bitforged.spaceEnglish
          5·
          3 days ago

          I remember back when I was a kid, the only way I was even able to try Ubuntu was through “WUBI” which was pretty cool - it allowed you to “install” Ubuntu via Windows, by leveraging the VHD support in the Windows 7 bootloader. It could also be uninstalled via the Windows control panel as it was registered just like any other program.

          As far as I understand, it was discontinued because of inherent technical issues with that system - but I always thought if it could be done again, then it’d help bridge the gap a bit. All you had to do was download the installer, and double click it like any other program.

          I had no clue how to write an image to a flash drive, hell I doubt I even had a flash drive to use at the time. 😅

          • Samskara@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            2·
            2 days ago

            Ubuntu used to mail out free install CDs for a while. Nowadays many people don’t have optical drives anymore though.

            • Russ@bitforged.spaceEnglish
              2·
              2 days ago

              I did get one of those at one point! Definitely no longer have it anymore, but it was really cool that Canonical provided those for quite a while (from what I know).

        • MintyFresh@lemmy.world
          3·
          3 days ago

          Ya the thumb drive was a tripping point for me. Took me a minute to understand I had to reformat the drive itself. I also didn’t try to partition anything.

    • utopiah@lemmy.world
      6·
      2 days ago

      I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.

      And that was before the SteamDeck too.

    • Novice_Idiot@lemmy.wtf
      81·
      3 days ago

      This means that there’s plenty of room for companies to sell curated lists of apps that just magically work. I would buy the shit out of that for a work machine that just needs to work, no matter what. I’d also pay for something like that for my mom or my fiancé neither of them are particularly tech interested but will happily use something if it works.

      • green@feddit.nlEnglish
        83·
        3 days ago

        This is actually a really deep rabbit-hole. To avoid typing a novel, I’m going to cut out a lot of nuance.

        Windows is installed by default on machines. Since people do not change defaults (many studies have been done on this), this is checkmate. As long as this is true, Linux will not have a major (20%+) market share.

        So this has to start from the OEM. Several Linux OEMs exist (i.e Tuxedo Computers, System76, Framework) but they cannot compete with the Microsoft network. Those who are interested in Linux, but are not tech savvy, really really really should buy their device from a Linux OEM.

        Driver issues are near non-existent on Linux OEM hardware. So software is the next step; and let me tell you, developing for Linux is rough. There are 2 window servers, 2 graphic stacks, 2 desktop environments, 2 coding standards, 2 C libraries,… you get the point. A lot of this can be abstracted, but it takes genuine work to do - and may be obsoleted in a month; meaning no company will do this.

        All to say, creating “magically working” apps - even with a lot of monetary support - is a herculean task. Even Valve (who is FLUSHED with cash) gave up and just decided to make their own distro (SteamOS).

        A lot of issues also just require personal tweaks due to open-source software being extraordinarily bad at setting sane defaults. With something like Windows, you can hire people to make this better. Who do you hire to fix the defaults for 300 independent projects? And will the devs even listen to them?

        I could keep going, but you get the point, the buck is going to have to stop at the user for a lot of things.

        The best solution (in my opinion) is to have specialized distros and have people choose from them. Want to game? SteamOS. Want to dev? Fedora. Want to surf the web? Linux Mint. Creating, and more importantly accurately listing, specialized distros will make lives easier. Leave the defaults to the devs, just download the “vibe” you want.

      • Petter1@lemm.ee
        21·
        3 days ago

        That is exactly what Linux distributions are, not?

        Like, if you buy e.g. Tuxedo you have Linux and essential apps preinstalled, because it comes with your distro of choice out of box.

    • BCsven@lemmy.ca
      5·
      3 days ago

      My wife is on NixOS, because she wanted a system that would be exactly the same if it died. She doesn’t know Linux from Mac or Windows; She doesn’t care about privacy or where apps come from, only that it operates the exact same everyday. (And Windows could not satisfy this requirement)

      • PoolloverNathan@programming.dev
        2·
        3 days ago

        A pain point I’ve seen with NixOS for new users is the focus on editing files — how easy is it for her to install applications that way?

        • Russ@bitforged.spaceEnglish
          2·
          3 days ago

          IIRC, flatpaks do work with NixOS so long as it’s enabled (and you’ve installed GNOME Software / Discover / etc - since I assume they’re not using the terminal to install programs, and that’s assuming that they don’t need more than a web browser).

          So, if OP already set that up, then if Flathub has all you need, then it would make sense.

          Though the Nix philosophy would disagree because that’s imperatively installing software rather than declaratively. You could probably wire up something to dump flatpak list to a file every so often and then load that in from configuration.nix or a Flake, but I’m not well versed in Nix at all haha

        • BCsven@lemmy.ca
          1·
          2 days ago

          She doesn’t install apps, Her config is what she needs. But nixOS install is pretty simple if you can copy paste text.

          You go here https://search.nixos.org/packages

          Search for a package, and click if you want permanent or ephemeral app and paste the code into the shell or into your config file.

          Run a rebuild

          Pretty easy

          • PoolloverNathan@programming.dev
            2·
            2 days ago

            Yeah, I’m used to NixOS — however, having to edit the config (instead of e.g. a package manager) is a common pain point I see when others use NixOS, and it often leads to them switching distros.

            • BCsven@lemmy.ca
              1·
              2 days ago

              Yeah, I find it simple, but I’m used to text edits driving batch files etc. Daily driver I use Tumbleweed, the Yast zypper GUI gives you select and apply for pqckages, no command line needed.