• Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
      2014·
      8 months ago

      Bizarre to read how Ukrainians fighting a Russian invasion and having men dead because of that is now NATO’s fault somehow.

      I like these looks at logic and ideology totally bizarre to me. Lemmy is great for that

      • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
        1416·
        8 months ago

        NATO, specially the US, has meticulously blocked off all options other than an invasion by being an anti-Russia org and repeatedly not letting Russia join NATO because of that, backing the 2014 fascist coup in Ukraine to sideline the Minsk agreements against the interests and wishes of Eastern Ukrainians

        https://iili.io/JX9sm8l.png

        and the subsequent killings of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, like Donbas, DPR, and LPR, by the coup gov for resisting.

        They are also the ones blocking negotiations with Russia. So yes, this is NATO using Ukraine for a proxy war.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          1712·
          8 months ago

          These excuses for Russian aggression and how they just had to attack because NATO is a meanie organization and there was an unfriendly government in Ukraine and you just can’t have that and they literally made us attack them are just as ridiculous to me as US excuses about freedom, democracy and whatnot that they use to invade countries.

          Fuck Russia and their attack on Ukraine, they are the ones who caused the death of those Ukrainians. They are literally the ones killing them.

          They are also the ones blocking negotiations with Russia

          Ukraine could negotiate if it wanted to, but they don’t want to give in to Russia for obvious reasons, either just losing parts of their land to Russian land grab or worse, being subjugated by them. Russia on the other hand could stop this just by leaving. That’d be the end of it. And they wouldn’t have to give up their lands or anything. Could just go home.

          So yes, this is NATO using Ukraine for a proxy war.

          Russia literally invaded them but it’s NATO that’s bad for supporting their defense. The logic astounds me.

          • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
            1512·
            8 months ago

            What do you think your country should do if the world’s most war-mongering and most powerful superpower is making a military alliance specifically against your country, and is coup’ing neighboring ones if their population doesn’t want to do so?

            What if your country has tried repeatedly to join it, but has been refused every time? What if your country’s socialist system which this military alliance was formed against in the first place has already been overthrown and taken over by capitalists, and they still don’t stop? Seriously, what the fuck else is there to do?

            Ukraine could negotiate if it wanted to

            Tell that to the Eastern Ukrainians who this fascist government doesn’t represent, and has been killing for resisting.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
              1311·
              8 months ago

              What do you think your country should do if the world’s most war-mongering and most powerful superpower is making a military alliance explicitly against your country, and is coup’ing neighboring ones if their population doesn’t want to do so?

              I certainly wouldn’t be calling for an invasion of neighboring countries on the basis of not liking their government. Not justified for Russia, not justified for anyone imo. But hey, can’t have governments who aren’t aligned with us, gotta invade and even blame them for being invaded.

              What if your country has tried repeatedly to join it, but has been refused every time? Seriously, what the fuck else is there to do?

              Not start a war over not being allowed to join an international organization for one. “If you don’t let us in on your military alliance I’ll start attacking”. What a mindset.

              Tell that to the Eastern Ukrainians who this fascist government doesn’t represent, and has been killing for resisting.

              They did negotiate with Russia, or their self-proclaimed states did. NATO didn’t prevent that. Neither is it preventing Ukraine’s government from doing it. No idea what you were on about there.

              • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
                127·
                8 months ago

                You haven’t answered what else you think they should, or even could, do.

                International Organization

                NATO is an organization of primarily imperial core countries, not really an international one.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
                  77·
                  8 months ago

                  You haven’t answered what else you think they should, or even could, do.

                  I think they should stop attacking other countries. It’s really simple as that. It would be healthy to find some other ways to deal with unfriendly governments other than attacking them. Or just learn to accept that not everyone is aligned with you, as most do in similar situation. Though the idea that attacking and invading them is the only imaginable way is very on brand.

                  NATO is an organization of primarily imperial core countries, not really an international one.

                  International just means “existing, occurring, or carried on between nations.” There’s two or more different nations, it’s inter national.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
        1216·
        8 months ago

        Ukrainians are literally being dragged off the street by the regime to be thrown into the meat grinder. Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore. In fact, Russia has the highest population of Ukrainian refugees at the moment.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          177·
          8 months ago

          I don’t know if you’ve noticed that Ukraine is trying to defend their country against a Russian attack.

          Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore. In fact, Russia has the highest population of Ukrainian refugees at the moment.

          I’d be interested to see the source for these numbers. They seem hard to believe.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
            1115·
            8 months ago

            I don’t know if you’ve noticed that Ukraine is trying to defend their country against a Russian attack.

            The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.

            here you go, could’ve found this in 2 seconds of googling instead of making a clown of yourself here https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
              156·
              8 months ago

              The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.

              Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!

              here you go, could’ve found this in 2 seconds of googling instead of making a clown of yourself here https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/

              Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore

              I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.

              You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                75·
                8 months ago

                Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!

                LMFAO Stoltenberg literally admitted this already. Update your talking points. 😂

                Then lastly on Sweden. First of all, it is historic that now Finland is member of the Alliance. And we have to remember the background. The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

                The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

                So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

                https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

                I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population.

                Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.

                You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.

                I’m not upset about anything, I just think you’re an artless troll.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
                  85·
                  8 months ago

                  “NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.

                  I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.

                  Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.

                  You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.

                  I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.

            • Liz@midwest.socialEnglish
              76·
              8 months ago

              Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                67·
                8 months ago

                Not really the gotcha you seem to think it is. The fact that lots of Ukrainians were happy living in Russia even before the war illustrates that Ukrainians weren’t exactly anti-Russian.

                • Liz@midwest.socialEnglish
                  52·
                  8 months ago

                  The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that’s part of how Putin justified invading.

                  I’m sure even now most Ukrainians aren’t exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I’m sure most Ukrainians don’t find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.

                  Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.

                  The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
      2015·
      8 months ago

      Some most likely western libs just in this thread are already advocating for Ukraine to draft women too and of course using the argument of “equality” for their bloodlust.

    • Gabu@lemmy.ml
      59·
      8 months ago

      Russia may try, but it’ll never erase Ukraine nor the fact Ukraine made Russia.

  • rekabis@lemmy.ca
    2216·
    8 months ago

    There are plenty of potential recruits left.

    They just don’t have the political stomach to implement true equality. So they continue to treat men as disposable.

    • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
      3·
      8 months ago

      The reason isn’t that they believe men are disposable. It is that they believe women are inferior. Just look at the comments in this topic.

      • rekabis@lemmy.ca
        186·
        8 months ago

        And that justifies treating men as disposable assets of war?

        Some of the best combatants in modern warfare - and no few in historical warfare - have been female.

        Conscription should not be bigoted and sexist.

          • rekabis@lemmy.ca
            6·
            8 months ago

            Conscription should not be

            Exactly! But… where it already exists, and is needed, why should it be bigoted and sexist?

            • InputZero@lemmy.ml
              33·
              8 months ago

              Legitimate question, maybe it’s because the practice of conscription is rooted in patriarchy? The idea that a group of men with superior social power forcing men with inferior social power to fight and die for them seems to be very patriarchal to me. With that lens it makes sense why women aren’t conscripted, it’s not their job. Maybe their job is to be the prize for the victor…? That’s dark…

        • Gabu@lemmy.ml
          23·
          8 months ago

          The average man outperforms the average woman in effectively all tasks related to physical strength and endurance. Surely you see why warfare, something largely dependant on physical strength and endurance, is mainly left to men.

        • Doods@infosec.pub
          28·
          8 months ago

          Can you provide me with a statistical ratio of those great combatants? Specifically for those who are in the frontlines and fighting.

          Men are much more suited for war, and the skill set of women is better utilized elsewhere.

            • Doods@infosec.pub
              11·
              8 months ago

              hmmm…things that don’t require much physical strength and endurance? ( Any answer that is more complex will result in a messy ideological argument, which I don’t want to engage in.

              Actually, you know what? I don’t think I want to continue this argument. I am sorry for provoking your replies and then abandoning the conversion, I really am )

              Edit: I usually don’t do such a thing but I’m not feeling well today.

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldBEnglish
    72·
    8 months ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    Others from this rural area — about 45 miles from the borders of Romania and Moldova — have fled abroad or found ways to avoid the war, either with legitimate exemptions or by hiding.

    Ukraine’s parliament is debating a bill to expand the draft pool, in part by lowering the eligibility age to 25 from 27, but few decisions are being made in Kyiv that will quickly answer the army’s urgent needs.

    In the west, the mobilization drive has steadily sown panic and resentment in small agricultural towns and villages like Makiv, where residents said soldiers working for draft offices roam the near-empty streets searching for any remaining men.

    “People are being caught like dogs on the street,” said Olha Kametyuk, 35, whose husband, Valentin, 36, was drafted in June by soldiers who approached him and asked for his papers after he stopped for coffee on the main road outside Makiv.

    When the soldiers realized he was already serving, he said, they asked how he felt about men “‘who haven’t seen a single day of war” — which he said he regarded as a forced, hollow show of camaraderie.

    On a recent morning, Lyuda Shydey stood weeping in front of the portrait of her younger brother, Serhiy Kozynyak, who was killed in 2022 in Avdiivka, a city that fell to Russian forces last month.

    The original article contains 1,391 words, the summary contains 224 words. Saved 84%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

      • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
        712·
        8 months ago

        Lol what? Putin was picked by the US and believes in private property and capitalism/liberalism. He’s a liberal.

        • Land_Strider@lemmy.world
          44·
          8 months ago

          Putin was picked by the US

          I could easily say that for many other current/previous seemingly democratically elected rulers or outright dictators of underdeveloped or developing countries, starting with Kissinger and continuing it with Blinken now, but about Putin? You need to put some evidence, or at least some plausible mental gymnastics, behind this claim so as not to be ridiculed left and right.

        • Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world
          24·
          8 months ago

          Liberalism does not just mean capitalism. Most of Liberal thought is about political rights, the kind of political rights that Putin obviously has no care for.

          • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
            42·
            8 months ago

            about political rights

            Which stops the moment you use force, riots, and violence to sabotage liberal governments like MLK and communists like Mandela did. And liberals did not like those people at the time.

            Communists had to pry these concessions from liberalism with organized violence, don’t pretend like liberalism did these things. The lgbt liberation movement waved the flag of the legitimate vietnamese government during the US invasion. Marsha Johnson, Leslie Fienberg, communists.

            “The white liberal differs from the white conservative only in one way: the liberal is more deceitful than the conservative.”

            - Malcolm X

            "who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

            - MLK, 1963

            Liberals’ reaction to the genocide in Palestine and lack of support for Hamas, PFLP, etc has made it clear to me and most other communists how true this is.