Okay real talk, you can’t just “besides” the parts which make all nonAbrahamic religions, nature worship and atheism anathema, especially when you’re forcing it upon children in school. And especially when those doing so have proven those are the only bits they follow and intend to enforce.
I can when talking to atheists, what else can I do? Evidently you disagree with the notion of a Creator, why would I ask about that? And of course many of those who claim to be this or that are just unrepentant, amoral cunts who only believe might makes right (if I can and I want to, I will, should doesn’t register). People lie. 🤷😞
All the others boil down to The Golden Rule. You don’t need ten, or seven. Jesus explained that, but it existed before religion and doesn’t require belief in a deity.
Of course they are, but what’s the purpose in asking atheists whether they agree on anything strictly related to God? They deny His existence, the conversation wouldn’t be fruitful. And of course these moral stances are objectively true (the West is postmodern and doesn’t believe in objectively true anything on average but perhaps you’re different and see this for what it is), and don’t require belief in God for them to be true… but believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
I don’t need to be threatened with eternal suffering in order to choose to be a good person. I’m simply not a piece of shit by default.
How does the threat of eternal suffering stop you from faltering? Why is that more effective than just trying to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do?
I don’t need an external force to choose to be a good person.
Because it is, because eternal suffering is gonna keep your lower self in control when your higher self already rationalised their way into condoning a lack of virtue. Expecting people to be wiser than not is just the silliest thing, don’t you know people? There are some who break from the matrix of materialism and hedonism but most never do, and their eyes get bigger and let go of virtue for a moment, and in those cases remembering God’s Judgment can save you.
Many times that’s all we are and the difference is being or not being afraid of it. Personally, more than Hell, I’m just too proud to be too evil, I couldn’t face God and hear how awful I had been knowing well I could’ve been better because of free will. Nuh uh, I’m not trying to go through all of that, lol.
believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous
Then why do so few Christians act virtuously? Why is it Christians are the ones most in favor of Trump and everything he’s doing? Why are people being shot in the streets, families torn apart, immigrants dying in cells?
If Christians are, on average, more virtuous, why are they disproportionately supporting unethical, amoral leadership?
Why is it when Tim Walz implemented free school lunches for children, it was the Christian right that opposed it? Why were childless atheists like me stronger supporters of it than Christians?
I don’t think they are and Christianity itself was fucked from the start, being the empire’s state religion that co-opted the image of the man they murdered and changed the core “morality=goodness=what God wants from you” into “believe this person is God and you’re saved! Faith without deeds is a valid thing!”. Remember, Jesus was just a Jew of his time. I don’t think they actually accepted the message of Jesus, I think they accepted whatever Paul and the church said and never read a word in the Bible (which has a lot of crap but at least they’d know what they should be for/against from the actual source). I mean, God says “do not kill” but the Crusades happened, so from the beginning Jesus’ message, the Law and the prophets were not taken seriously in some parts of the world, just as a cover-up for the actual values they have (might makes right and fuck you if you get on my way, something like that, right?).
There’s too many people who believe in God and the Day of Judgement, who not only proclaim their belief but call for everyone else to believe the same, and yet their lives are built on greed and ambition for me to believe that has anything but a deleterious effect on true morality.
Better to focus on doing right in the here and now, because this is the only life we have, the only opportunity we have, to give a positive definition to our humanity.
Religion provides cover and loopholes for evil to flourish. And if God does exist, They clearly enjoy cruelty towards the innocent.
But if you wish to continue being religious, go ahead (not at me but for yourself) as long as you don’t start treating people as things. Because that’s where all evil begins.
Then they don’t? You know people can talk a lot of shit about things they have no actual connection to, just because it’s socially acceptable or expected of them or because being a hypocrite is sometimes materially beneficial. Donald Trump is probably a “Christian”, right? By their fruits you will recognise them, though. If someone comes telling me they’re a pretty kettle I won’t take their words seriously, I’ll just look at their very human shape and understand this person is either crazy or lying…
I know a number of very good people who are Abrahamic-religious (some Christian, some Jewish, some Muslim) and in every case their goodness is in spite of or unrelated to their religion. If you have to believe in eternal torment/bliss and the watchful eye of a Creator in order to treat others with kindness, you’re on shaky ground. It should be part of your whole being. My Wiccan and atheist friends are good in equal measure, and they have the additional grace to not go around trying to get others to follow their belief, only their example of humankindness.
Our goodness is hard coded actually, it’s the default, you actually have to really spin the rationalisation wheel and be nothing but a lost hedonist to cancel it out. But, again, it’s more about not disappointing God and yourself, since you were made good, than it is fearing Hell, although the latter works well for many people because most are sheep. But the important thing, really, is to fear God’s judgment, not because Hell sucks but because, if God in all his mercy says you sucked as a human being, He’s right, objectively so.
Remember how much more fun Christmas was when you believed in Santa? You should just start believing in Santa again and enhance your Christmas experience!
It’s easier said than done. Once you realize that Santa was just a manipulative lie to make children behave, you can’t force yourself to forget all that and just go back to the sense of wonder you had as a kid.
I never did but I understand what you’re saying. In this case, I think it’s more like “having been told many lies about Santa, I am now disappointed and not trusting anything related to this Santa character”. Which is an understandable reaction but not a good one, IMO.
All the evidence against someone meant to be a physical entity who can forge at times expensive toys and deliver them around the world in a single night? God is not here, he’s not contained by the universe, he’s outside of it by necessity… but Santa is supposed to be here, and neither reality nor reason support his existence. 🤷
That’s exactly how I feel about your God. Of course, you’ll say it’s different for this reason or that, but Santa is just as nonsensical as God, and is just as contradictory to the other verifiable truths we know about the world.
If you can’t take my request to believe in an unseen magical man who watches everything you do and rewards those who follow his rules seriously, why do you think that anyone would seriously consider your request to believe in a magical man who watches everything you do and rewards you for following his rules?
Okay real talk, you can’t just “besides” the parts which make all nonAbrahamic religions, nature worship and atheism anathema, especially when you’re forcing it upon children in school. And especially when those doing so have proven those are the only bits they follow and intend to enforce.
I can when talking to atheists, what else can I do? Evidently you disagree with the notion of a Creator, why would I ask about that? And of course many of those who claim to be this or that are just unrepentant, amoral cunts who only believe might makes right (if I can and I want to, I will, should doesn’t register). People lie. 🤷😞
Are they The Ten Commandments or not?
All the others boil down to The Golden Rule. You don’t need ten, or seven. Jesus explained that, but it existed before religion and doesn’t require belief in a deity.
Of course they are, but what’s the purpose in asking atheists whether they agree on anything strictly related to God? They deny His existence, the conversation wouldn’t be fruitful. And of course these moral stances are objectively true (the West is postmodern and doesn’t believe in objectively true anything on average but perhaps you’re different and see this for what it is), and don’t require belief in God for them to be true… but believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
I don’t need to be threatened with eternal suffering in order to choose to be a good person. I’m simply not a piece of shit by default.
You don’t have to be a piece of shit, just a person, to falter sometimes.
How does the threat of eternal suffering stop you from faltering? Why is that more effective than just trying to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do?
I don’t need an external force to choose to be a good person.
Because it is, because eternal suffering is gonna keep your lower self in control when your higher self already rationalised their way into condoning a lack of virtue. Expecting people to be wiser than not is just the silliest thing, don’t you know people? There are some who break from the matrix of materialism and hedonism but most never do, and their eyes get bigger and let go of virtue for a moment, and in those cases remembering God’s Judgment can save you.
Major self-report.
If you need the notion of an invisible sky judge/peeping Tom, you’re not a virtuous person, you’re a trembling child afraid of the strap.
Many times that’s all we are and the difference is being or not being afraid of it. Personally, more than Hell, I’m just too proud to be too evil, I couldn’t face God and hear how awful I had been knowing well I could’ve been better because of free will. Nuh uh, I’m not trying to go through all of that, lol.
Um, wat
Then why do so few Christians act virtuously? Why is it Christians are the ones most in favor of Trump and everything he’s doing? Why are people being shot in the streets, families torn apart, immigrants dying in cells?
If Christians are, on average, more virtuous, why are they disproportionately supporting unethical, amoral leadership?
Why is it when Tim Walz implemented free school lunches for children, it was the Christian right that opposed it? Why were childless atheists like me stronger supporters of it than Christians?
I don’t think they are and Christianity itself was fucked from the start, being the empire’s state religion that co-opted the image of the man they murdered and changed the core “morality=goodness=what God wants from you” into “believe this person is God and you’re saved! Faith without deeds is a valid thing!”. Remember, Jesus was just a Jew of his time. I don’t think they actually accepted the message of Jesus, I think they accepted whatever Paul and the church said and never read a word in the Bible (which has a lot of crap but at least they’d know what they should be for/against from the actual source). I mean, God says “do not kill” but the Crusades happened, so from the beginning Jesus’ message, the Law and the prophets were not taken seriously in some parts of the world, just as a cover-up for the actual values they have (might makes right and fuck you if you get on my way, something like that, right?).
If Christians are morally superior, why does it take fascism to enforce their beliefs?
There’s too many people who believe in God and the Day of Judgement, who not only proclaim their belief but call for everyone else to believe the same, and yet their lives are built on greed and ambition for me to believe that has anything but a deleterious effect on true morality.
Better to focus on doing right in the here and now, because this is the only life we have, the only opportunity we have, to give a positive definition to our humanity.
Religion provides cover and loopholes for evil to flourish. And if God does exist, They clearly enjoy cruelty towards the innocent.
But if you wish to continue being religious, go ahead (not at me but for yourself) as long as you don’t start treating people as things. Because that’s where all evil begins.
Then they don’t? You know people can talk a lot of shit about things they have no actual connection to, just because it’s socially acceptable or expected of them or because being a hypocrite is sometimes materially beneficial. Donald Trump is probably a “Christian”, right? By their fruits you will recognise them, though. If someone comes telling me they’re a pretty kettle I won’t take their words seriously, I’ll just look at their very human shape and understand this person is either crazy or lying…
I know a number of very good people who are Abrahamic-religious (some Christian, some Jewish, some Muslim) and in every case their goodness is in spite of or unrelated to their religion. If you have to believe in eternal torment/bliss and the watchful eye of a Creator in order to treat others with kindness, you’re on shaky ground. It should be part of your whole being. My Wiccan and atheist friends are good in equal measure, and they have the additional grace to not go around trying to get others to follow their belief, only their example of humankindness.
Our goodness is hard coded actually, it’s the default, you actually have to really spin the rationalisation wheel and be nothing but a lost hedonist to cancel it out. But, again, it’s more about not disappointing God and yourself, since you were made good, than it is fearing Hell, although the latter works well for many people because most are sheep. But the important thing, really, is to fear God’s judgment, not because Hell sucks but because, if God in all his mercy says you sucked as a human being, He’s right, objectively so.
Any God that slaughters and tortures so many innocents while enabling and pandering to so many human demons is worse than no God at all.
I wouldn’t give a shit about the opinion of any human with that record, I’d actively seek their disapproval.
I’m a pessimist, but even I am not enough of a doomer to believe this is the Plan of a Creator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Remember how much more fun Christmas was when you believed in Santa? You should just start believing in Santa again and enhance your Christmas experience!
It’s easier said than done. Once you realize that Santa was just a manipulative lie to make children behave, you can’t force yourself to forget all that and just go back to the sense of wonder you had as a kid.
I never did but I understand what you’re saying. In this case, I think it’s more like “having been told many lies about Santa, I am now disappointed and not trusting anything related to this Santa character”. Which is an understandable reaction but not a good one, IMO.
You never believed in Santa Claus?
What’s stopping you from believing in him now?
All the evidence against someone meant to be a physical entity who can forge at times expensive toys and deliver them around the world in a single night? God is not here, he’s not contained by the universe, he’s outside of it by necessity… but Santa is supposed to be here, and neither reality nor reason support his existence. 🤷
That’s exactly how I feel about your God. Of course, you’ll say it’s different for this reason or that, but Santa is just as nonsensical as God, and is just as contradictory to the other verifiable truths we know about the world.
If you can’t take my request to believe in an unseen magical man who watches everything you do and rewards those who follow his rules seriously, why do you think that anyone would seriously consider your request to believe in a magical man who watches everything you do and rewards you for following his rules?