Oh fuuuuck of. There are books based on actual KGB archives that were opened up. Rape of Berlin is well described. There are books about the actual bordelos attached to armies. Western armies. Soviet officers had army wives. Apparently they still do.
There are countless accounts of people prefering Nazi soldiers to soviets.
It is THE reason central and easter Europe hates russia.
No data on rapes my ass. But pleeenty of data that soviets single handedly saved the world from Nazis.
Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!
Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn’t the case 40 years ago.
Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it’s 70% Americans. That’s what Hollywood and propaganda do.
Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
Interesting. Look’s like the “old.reddit” plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they’re full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/
Now is that graph valid… well looking at the “study report”… It’s like 3 pages of content that doesn’t actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older… the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how “valid” this is to begin with. But let’s look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this “perception” could have been a thing… (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
Virginie Sansico, a historian specializing in World War II, sees these results as a certain logic: “Under De Gaulle, who was anti-Atlanticist, one was not quick to maintain the memory of the Landing. Moreover, the Communist Party has long helped to value the Soviets, when it had a strong influence. The first State-backed landing commemorations took place only in 1984, organized by Mitterrand: they mark a break in public opinion.”
“In Western Europe, the Allied Landing was crucial, but in the eastern countries, Stalin’s army still played a great deal behind.”
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle’s personal opinions on the matter.
So I’m going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they’re trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It’s a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it’s 25%. That’s exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I’ll be ready to talk with you. I’m sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it’s impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it’s the first link that I could copy-paste, since it’s more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it’s a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn’t “I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government”. You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren’t Russian, don’t we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family’s lived experience isn’t real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You’ve converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I’ve recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history
must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck… I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice…
We do know however that the Red Army had the most investigations of and prosecutions of rapists, so it’s a bit of a “Swedish rape crisis” problem where they look worse on paper than other countries simply because their record keeping of the crime in question is better.
Oh, boy. Good that soviets took such good care of recording rapes. Unlike bad western nazies. White washing soviet rapes with statistics.
There is also one more reason. soviets had no bordelos for the regular army. Only officers had army wives. It is a known fact. So what would regular grunts would do is rape anything they find.
But probably western propaganda. Because in communism, everyone is equal, and everything belongs to everyone.
What’s your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn’t fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that’s what Nazis did against soviets.
As did everyone. There’s no study showing that the amount of rapes per soldier by the soviets is higher than that of other nations.
Oh fuuuuck of. There are books based on actual KGB archives that were opened up. Rape of Berlin is well described. There are books about the actual bordelos attached to armies. Western armies. Soviet officers had army wives. Apparently they still do.
There are countless accounts of people prefering Nazi soldiers to soviets. It is THE reason central and easter Europe hates russia.
No data on rapes my ass. But pleeenty of data that soviets single handedly saved the world from Nazis.
Get a grasp.
Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!
Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn’t the case 40 years ago.
Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it’s 70% Americans. That’s what Hollywood and propaganda do.
Yup, propaganda. Sure.
Yes. Propaganda.
https://external-preview.redd.it/AhO5ZQ677V5Y9TmxXkvG9PfdoBCeDKR7gFKy84JiGTc.jpg?auto=webp&s=e727011a95ea3bbe987cc313ffdda0e38fae8c64
Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
Their link shows some infographic in french, for me. I have reposted it.
Interesting. Look’s like the “old.reddit” plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they’re full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/ Now is that graph valid… well looking at the “study report”… It’s like 3 pages of content that doesn’t actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older… the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how “valid” this is to begin with. But let’s look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this “perception” could have been a thing… (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle’s personal opinions on the matter.
So I’m going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they’re trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It’s a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it’s 25%. That’s exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I’ll be ready to talk with you. I’m sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it’s impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
https://lemmy.saik0.com/post/911795/3275325
feel free to actually address it at your leisure. But you’ve shown that you’re crazy anyway. So I don’t think anyone has high hopes for you.
I shit on both Nazis and Russia. Both then and now.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it’s the first link that I could copy-paste, since it’s more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it’s a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn’t “I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government”. You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren’t Russian, don’t we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family’s lived experience isn’t real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You’ve converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I’ve recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck… I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice…
We do know however that the Red Army had the most investigations of and prosecutions of rapists, so it’s a bit of a “Swedish rape crisis” problem where they look worse on paper than other countries simply because their record keeping of the crime in question is better.
Oh, boy. Good that soviets took such good care of recording rapes. Unlike bad western nazies. White washing soviet rapes with statistics.
There is also one more reason. soviets had no bordelos for the regular army. Only officers had army wives. It is a known fact. So what would regular grunts would do is rape anything they find.
But probably western propaganda. Because in communism, everyone is equal, and everything belongs to everyone.
Like in current day russia.
I will let you know that you constantly excuse and support ultracapitalist nazi regimes. That makes you a nazi.
Tell me one I’m defending
I also only rape within the average of my demographic
What’s your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn’t fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that’s what Nazis did against soviets.
Prosecuted ? Yes, war, famously rule-of-law kind of situation…
My point is it should be