Michael

I don’t think the R4L project is for naught or is impeding progress. I see their good faith and their efforts. A split codebase can just be chopped off at the base and business can move on as usual at any point.

If Linux kernel maintainers are against potential improvements being found to the existing C code as a result of parallel development, then perhaps they should require the Rust developers to suggest what the added/changed code could look like in C (if possible) and their reasons for changing the implementation in Rust before they can push their implementation (forcing R4L to shoulder the brunt of the work) - or force R4L to stick to close-approximations and working within the existing system to properly change existing functionality through established processes.

I apologize that I misrepresented his arguments, I of course meant to say that his problem was a split codebase and I understood as much, I just misspoke. Other comments have enlightened me to better understand his arguments and concerns since I posted, as well.

You: […] have been generally trying to jam their code everywhere

I suppose your earlier statement was just stuck in my head, and I was wondering to what extent they have “infected” the codebase with Rust.

And I learned about the manual when a creator I was linked was talking about how there are parallels between the manual and the decline/failure of the U.S. education system, but I similarly disagreed with them that the issues of the U.S. education system are due to internal or external sabotage (through any methods described in the manual, whether intentional sabotage or not) or anything close to it. This was before Trump.

laymen who are not involved in the process in any way (on either side) acting like armchair experts and passing harsh judgement.

It doesn’t matter what laymen say, so how can they be the problem?

This is why people like Martin feel justified going on social media to publicly complain, because they know they’ll get a bunch of yesmen with no credible arguments to mindlessly harrass the developers they disagree with.

Did Hector call people to action to harass the developers that “they disagree with”? Or did they try to promote awareness on the issue that is clearly causing them frustration? They certainly questioned whether or not there was another way besides shaming people on social media and it shows potential growth from my perspective.

If the project fails, it will be because of this behavior, not because of the “old guys” being stubborn.

Social media is another medium to express yourself and communicate ideas - it is neither good nor bad. If a project that is already developed pretty openly cannot address the criticism by social media/the public of their statements and behaviors, then perhaps they should privatize their communications. Or perhaps just address the criticisms in good faith and explain themselves in the spirit of open source.

From my understanding, it’s not Hellwig’s job to maintain the Rust side of the code. They can find multi-language codebases a pain all they want and throw a gigantic tantrum focused towards the R4L project - it doesn’t affect the code that they are responsible for. I don’t see why the whole R4L project couldn’t just be removed if R4L is not maintained by those who develop and support it.

but I will do everything I can do to stop this.

Is an open admission of Hellwig to sabotaging the R4L project.

Seeing the R4L folks as saboteurs or anything close is not in evidence. This isn’t the '90s, we have the means to be a lot more productive in regards to coding and managing codebases, and historical maintenance problems are irrelevant. If the R4L team is truly sabotaging the codebase by adding too much complexity or overhead, there are levers that can be pulled to change their direction without blindly rejecting or hindering their efforts.

Again, I am aware of the manual. I was recently exposed to it, as well, so it’s very fresh in my mind. I understand why you mentioned it and understand what you are saying, but I disagree, I don’t see the parallels.

I think Linus just wants the drama to stop and the progress to flow, but I’ll let him speak for his emotions towards the R4L project and avoid speculating about him.

I’m just openly speculating that there are vulnerabilities in the code, and that the R4L project will uncover those as a natural product of its evolution. I don’t think a CIA sabotage manual is apt to describe the R4L project, largely because I see it as progress. From my perspective, maintaining old C code is not something they are sabotaging.

As opposed to the R4L members, there are those who are openly admitting to sabotaging the progress of the R4L project. If you’ve seen the past public clashes between the R4L project and the Linux kernel community, you’d also be able to garner that from those interactions as well.

Yes, from my understanding as an outsider and layman, of course. From my perspective, the observation and insights developed from the R4L project will make Linux much stronger project overall moving forwards.

Social media is virtual town hall and a place for many to vent and deal with their emotions - not everybody is perfect and uses the internet the way you approve of. It’s truly no different in essence than the LKML or other public-facing communication platforms - it just has more voices and more free engagement. We can be big people who express ourselves any way we’d like as long as we respect others the way we’d like to be respected.

I don’t advocate for shaming because I wouldn’t want it done to me, but I don’t see Hector acting in bad faith, and their actions are questionably hostile because Hector clearly wavered in their approach. They are under a lot of stress and are obviously motivated by the feelings of the other R4L maintainers and their issues - Hector’s good faith and empathy is plain to see. They are very upset that others are being disrespected, that their work is being unnecessarily questioned, and that their efforts overall are likened to a “cancer” while people openly stand in their way.

Did Hector disrespect the maintainer in question? Did Hector call people to action in order to shame the maintainer in question? Their initial intention did matter, of course, and I was not able to read the drama in question on social media because it appears to be removed. Hector certainly wanted the maintainer removed, which I don’t personally agree is ideal or fair, but it’s not their decision and it’s not social media’s decision.

On the flip-side in this instance, I similarly see somebody who brings up valid issues with splitting the codebase accompanied by a lot of emotions spilling out (like seeing Rust as a cancer, and vowing to stop it from spreading in the codebase further), but I personally fail to see how that is their problem if the code isn’t going to involve them. It’s up to Linus and the larger LKML community to discuss the form in which Rust will take in the Linux kernel.

Clearly a discussion that could be had with Hector included, but there is a lot of hostility towards larger public focus coming from Linus, and he effectively shut the discussion down and accused Hector of being the problem. There certainly are problems all around, from my perspective, but all of that could’ve been resolved, and still can.

trying to jam their code everywhere using methods that rival the cia simple field sabotage manual.

I am aware of the manual, but I fail to see how adding to a codebase is “sabotage” if it’s all generally seen as fine by the project lead - it’s far from a hostile takeover.

Would a CIA saboteur even want memory safety as a rule? Just speculating, but I’d say that’s unlikely.

Edit: I changed the order of the sentences, as it was not intentionally ordered, and slightly clarified my second thought.

Rust seems to be imperative for security. I hope people in the Linux kernel community put aside their differences and find common ground for the benefit of everyone.

From my perspective as an outsider, there is a lot of apparent hostility and seemingly bad faith engagements going on in this space. Hopefully the reasons are innocuous like them just not wanting to learn a new language, to avoid increasing their workload, or to simply avoid working with the Rust team for whatever reasons they might have.

I would argue that anybody standing in the way of progress and increased security should be moved out of the way. No need for shaming or deep dives, just move the ship forward.

I don’t think there is any need to reserve or control your feelings - love freely however you’d like to be loved to everyone you encounter. If somebody doesn’t hold love or respect for you in some form, I’d say that they probably aren’t suited to being in a relationship with you, platonic or otherwise.

See loving somebody as not possessing/owning them or controlling them. If you are the best fit with somebody, you’ll both know it and it’ll click at some point. You’ll both come to the understanding that you’d rather not be with anybody else on the journey you both share and mutually chose to be on.

Loosen up and be patient, honest, and direct. Give space to your potential love interests. If you think it would help, I’d also suggest seeing people you are very passionate about as friends you have feelings for, instead of love interests - just don’t overextend yourself or give what you don’t have to give.

Trust yourself, and trust that when everything feels right, you’ll both open up at the best moment and define a proper relationship and healthy boundaries. If you truly have built trust and rapport with somebody, whatever you create with them will be a beautiful and fulfilling thing and there will be no room for jealousy or doubt because it’s simply not necessary.

Yes, surely with programs like PRISM and the NSA, and corporations collecting information about literally every aspect of our lives with every device we purchase…they are just trying to sell us ads.

Our ruling power structure is paranoid, our government is rogue and largely does not serve US citizens (only the ruling elite), they maintain control by invoking fear, division, outrage, and stress in the population and they count on our learned helplessness and slave mentality. They want us to be depressed, they want us to be chronically ill and tired, they want us to be poor and struggling, and most importantly they want us to think we’re the “good guys” fighting the “bad guys”.

I’d prefer to see people screenshot/crop and also link to an archived version or a frontend. These services (X, Instagram, Meta, etc.) often require you to login for a lot of things (including seeing posts) and also block VPNs.

It definitely is harmful to Lemmy’s userbase to click on these links, but I also don’t think we should create a walled garden. Users can always choose to use solutions like LibRedirect.

I do like that you signal-boosted Mullvad Browser. I think it’s a great option. And I hope somebody sees this post and gives the team a hand.

Projects like LibreWolf and Mullvad Browser are important because user settings being roughly the same across a userbase helps you to blend in. Even extensions you install can be used to fingerprint you.

There’s also no credit-score check in the US for job applications, so no, it doesn’t “lock people out of finding work.”

Employers may use credit report information to verify an applicant’s identity and to look for signs of excessive debt or past financial mismanagement. Source: https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/why-employers-check-your-credit-report-and-what-they-see/

Employers discriminate very openly against applicants for a variety of reasons. Nepotism is one such way, AI filtering is an emergent way - there are plenty of other practices.

Good luck getting a job if you were ever convicted of a crime, no matter how innocuous, or even had a police report filed against you (for certain jobs with clearances) - with no convictions, evidence, or arrest. Even being arrested with charges dropped can disqualify you effectively.

And you better believe if you actually got arrested, every local newspaper has doxxed you - with full name, mug shot, even potentially your employment history and rough home address. All it takes is a name to get somebody’s address because people search websites exist to compile all of the wonderful publicly available information.

and they are struggling to keep it up to date with the latest Arkenfox updates, despite putting out new releases.

Keyword is Arkenfox user.js. Which is not Firefox updates.

If the LibreWolf maintainers are overwhelmed at the frequency of commits of a project that tweaks Firefox preferences (which amounts to “sesame street numbers” according to Arkenfox developers) because they are short on time and resources, so what?

Not going to get into a huge debate, but I disagree that it’s a good thing or even remotely ideal. I don’t there should be such huge separations in society to the point where you can point somebody out as “rich” and “poor” - especially pegging an entire neighborhood as poor or mostly poor.

We can do better to provide quality housing and the ingredients of dignity to everyone.

We need to redefine society if we want to truly unify, and it starts with an universal human bill of rights. Ensuring individual and community-based sovereignty with guiding concepts like direct democracy are important first steps. Dependence on externalities and reliance on impersonal entities like corporations (which largely capture governance, science, and everything else they can) needs to stop if we want to realize a world that is worth living in for ourselves and future generations.

Society is our doom if we continue to allow pollution, waste, and destruction of our environments on levels we have never seen before, while experts and other people in the know stand silently and cover the situation up, or are largely ignored if they are actually crying out. Environmentally-caused disease and chronic illness are rising to levels that we can no longer ignore or cover up.

Modern sewer systems are safe

They produce biosolids which are probably very contaminated and are presently jammed into landfills if they are not (from my understanding) unsafely repurposed. I’d like to see people openly entertain the various uses we could have for our waste. Our systems aren’t good enough quite yet to close the book on.

connect with high speed rail isn’t feasible

From my perspective, high speed rail is very feasible for freight and transportation. Does it make sense to connect to every remote and mostly uninhabited region? Probably not.

We need to work on our communities

Hard yes. I just feel that it’s very difficult to connect when you are so vastly disconnected in current cities.

and make cities safe for people to live in

We’ll have to get very serious to tackle our pollution and polluting practices to do so. I think a large number of cities will have to naturally relocate/rebuild as the situation shifts in the coming decades and that is what I was attempting to touch on.

get rid of cars etc. spreading out isn’t the answer

I’m not explicitly arguing against centralization or arguing for dispersion into rural areas, and I do agree with you largely. I think accessible high speed rail is one way that we can get rid of cars and other vehicles.

I was attempting to communicate that I would sooner argue for eating insects over lab-grown protein mainly because of the danger I see in the concept of a food source that is only able to be produced in a lab, not that I am going to seriously argue for insects to be seen as anything other than a potential option for protein. Plenty of other cultures utilize insects in food willingly, and I’m all about arguing for consent and what’s best for everybody individually.

I think we will have to get very creative to solve our problems with agriculture and food production, and I think all options should be fairly entertained if they can be done in a way that is truly safe while prioritizing the will of the people. I’m of the opinion that our food sources should be more natural and that’s also what I was attempting to touch on.

I’m talking about centralization. Expecting countless individuals to be able to do something as well as specialists can do it just doesn’t make sense to me.

As far as I know, there is no existing and modern example of centralization that I am aware of that isn’t some form of state authoritarianism with capitalist or other class/status-based elements. So in my mind, the concepts are at least loosely interlinked, unless we are framing this in the context of the world already being at least slightly utopian or having overt socialist elements. Which I’m happy to entertain, or just purely entertain the concept of centralization in a vacuum.

I overall agree that centralization could be made very efficient, but in its current form, people are limited/controlled in a number of ways (such as lacking ownership of their property), and those that control centralization efforts are not designing cities or economies of scale that are even remotely healthy and in the best interest of humanity or the planet.

If we have no meaningful way of getting rid of or utilize biosolids besides landfills and other, more harmful practices, it doesn’t seem like the most amazing thing to do in the tried and true way moving forward.

“Personal responsibility” is a red herring

If I have to give my power away to external entities to meet my needs and tackle all of my problems, and they persistently show a pattern of wanton disregard for my health and safety and of those around me, I’m going to find ways of taking matters into my own hands and show others how easy and inexpensive it is - that you don’t need to be an expert to tackle certain realities of life that are vastly over-complicated by those in power.

Off-gridders are primarily dilettantes who have the money to pretend they’re disconnected from the system.

Of course nobody is truly disconnected, on the contrary, we are all connected. It is, however, disingenuous to imply that you need vast sums of money to accomplish such a lifestyle. The system is also, in my view, not solely responsible for all existing innovation and culture that off-gridders/etc. benefit from.

The modern world is moving along at a very slow pace, and it’s doing so kicking and screaming at every small step of progress because of concepts like “expense” and the diminishing/false quantification of value of people to excuse inaction or the blatant disregard of the health and safety of those that reside in it.

I’m of the view that unless a city/centralized location is able to support its basic needs in the geographic region its occupying (and moving forward), it’s probably in the wrong spot. Am I against centralization or proponents of it? Of course not, but there has to be a valid reason for specific projects and solid grounding for it besides what is best or convenient for capitalists.

From my perspective, there also needs to be guiding principles, a universal bill of human rights that is never eroded, and a commitment to ending/creatively solving polluting practices and actively remediating said pollution.

TIL, and of course I echo the sentiment of the other commenter that those words don’t truly exist here in the US, and I agree with you that the world is a much larger place than the US. I just would hope that European countries (or whatever other countries are concerned about the health of their people) lead the charge if such a solution to our protein came to be.