I forgot to set a reminder so I’m a little late getting to this, but here we are again:
Are you a “tankie”?
Respond “yes” or “no”, I’ll collate results later
This process is being undertaken to determine if so-called “tankies” are conspiring to make you (yes, you) have a bad time on the internet!
vague or informal answers will be interpreted by the central authority (me). Only top level comments will be counted. I will not be providing further instructions or clarifications.
🤯
Link to previous results (very serious) hexbear / lemmy,ml
Link to previous “are you a tankie?” thread
I’ll likely check back in a week, my old pc died so itll take a little bit of time to prettify the results and write a report
Ciao, and of course, imperialism must be destroyed.
Tankie is when a third worlder socialist shares the most Milquetoast leftist opinion.
“Tankies” don’t exist.
People who unironically use the word “tankie” would say it’s someone who uncritically supports communist governments, but if you ever look at someone using it, it’s always because they are uncritically against all communist governments and so they interpret nuance or historical understanding as blind loyalty to communism.
Probably? At least in the sense that I’ve managed to gather from the very confused online arguments about the term. I’m a communist. While I’d love it if we could all peacefully vote our way into a better society, I recognize that it’s probably not going to happen and whatever nastiness we’d have to do to actually make the change is worth moving past the endless awfulness that is capitalism. And for the existing countries, while they’re not magical Christmas lands, I’ve learned they’re not quite as bad as the capitalists have fear- mongered.
And I get Anarchists thinking it’s states all the way down but…………. I don’t know what to tell you. What’s the alternative? Even if I want to get where you’re going, how do we get there? Where is the bus/train? I don’t see any running to get there.
Hey comrade, have you considered making an account on Lemmy.ml, Lemmygrad.ml, or Hexbear.net? Lemmy.world censors communist content, so you might at least prefer something like Lemmy.zip that can see the content communists are posting.
How does that work? I assumed one Lemmy account covered everything. Where do I go for each of these?
Lemmy instances are kinda like islands, but you can visit and see other islands that are on good terms, or “federated.” Federation can be one-way, ie you can see and comment on another instance’s posts but they can’t see yours, or it can be two-way, and you can comment back and forth. You are on Lemmy.world’s view of a Lemmy.ml post. There are comments from Hexbear and Lemmygrad users on this post that I can see, but you can’t, like this one.
Lemmy.world is defederated from Hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml, the two biggest communist instances. In order to see their content and interact with their users, you need an account on an instance like those two, or Lemmy.ml, Lemmy.zip, etc. You don’t need one for each instance, just one federated with what you want to see.
Does that make sense?
So I just pick one of them and I’m good? Any suggestion which one to pick? Just the biggest?
EDIT: Also, am I able to just be logged into both so I can see both sides at the same time or do I have to swap back and forth if I want to check out world or the commy instances?
Well, what is it that you want? Do you want one account that can see almost everything? Lemmy.zip or Lemmy.ml would be better than Lemmy.world, and you can chat with Hexbear and Lemmygrad users as well as Lemmy.world users that way. Do you just want to talk with communists? Lemmygrad.ml or Hexbear.net might be a better fit, you won’t be able to interact with Lemmy.world that way. You can see Lemmy.world content and comment on it from Grad, but they can’t see your content. Hexbear defederated from .world so it doesn’t even show up.
Personally, I use all 3 depending on what I want to do.
I recommend checking out this guide by a good Lemmygrad comrade!
Thanks. Do only some of the instances have an old version? I see one for lemmy.zip but it doesn’t show up for ml or lemmygrad.
I think? Not actually sure, really!
Tankie is a pretty cool sounding word, so yes.
Yes.
That answer is only for my own country America, I do not have strong opinions for other areas and countries.
And I realize the term is broad, and gives connotations I do not intend.
A socialist movement that is backed by force, and not using democratic methods, would save far more lives than it would destroy.
Americans do not understand democracy because they do not understand, at a fundamental level, that ballot counts need to be witnessed and recounts always allowed.
They cannot be taught that. This removes reform by democracy.
But when reform is imposed on by force there are many who would disagree . So the revolution would need to defend itself. That means time and time again, this would happen repeatedly. And the cost would be horrible.
Of course my preferred solution would raise new problems, and a rise of a new elite would have to countered, and history shows that is hard. But I think because tens of millions of Americans will die if this revolution not happen, then it’s worth it
“In many cases, to avoid conflict is to prolong suffering”
-Ture
yes
Yes
(Or at least I hope so lol)
no
I don’t know enough about what happened in Hungary to even form an opinion on it and it isn’t at all relevant to today. But I do have actual principles and oppose imperialism, so other instances will say so anyway.
no
No. But my anarchist friends consider me one. Also I don’t consider the term tankie to be synonymous with communist or socialist.
If there were no meddling from the imperialist special interest abroad, there would have been no need for the tanks. Unfortunately the siege is ever present and ubiquitous.
“Tankie” isn’t synonymous with communist in the same way “pinko” isn’t, both are just pejoratives for communists.
I don’t think so but I have been called it. So from my perspective no. from other peoples perspective. yes. From what I think a tankie would be (full communist workers own the means of prodcution who then says russia or such is in the right direction) no. I mean I doubt they look at me as one of their own. I sorta doubt tankies like the term though if per se. I mean there is a difference between feeling that karl marx writings are correct and outlays a way for society to run and saying nk, china, and russia are doing a bang up job.
No communist thinks the Russian Federation is socialist, at most there is critical support in that the RF opposes the US Empire and the west as well as maintaining strong ties with socialist countries, but most communists do support the PRC and by extension the efforts of the CPC to develop a robust socialist system.
As for “tankies,” many label themselves as such as more of a joke, or to disempower the term. The actual pejorative though is fairly meaningless.
Yeah I think that when it comes down to it tankie is basically an insult to those that use it as a label and means whatever they want it to. So on the one side I will talk about how renting is not bad when the person who “owns” property lives there and get a lot of flak. I equally get flak when I talk about how property ownership is sorta an illusion given with taxes and such everyone rents from the government in some shape or form along with the fact that the government has to control an area and recognize the ownership for there to be ownership.
So on the one side I will talk about how renting is not bad when the person who “owns” property lives there and get a lot of flak.
I’m a former owner-occupant of a multi-unit property. This is a textbook petit bourgeois assertion, the kind of thing that Bernie Sanders might say. He’ll rail against crony capitalism and über capitalism but not per se capitalism. Petit capitalism as a treat inevitably leads to the haute capitalism and oligarchy we suffer under today.
If you’re meandering around support for capitalism, you’re not a communist, so I wouldn’t think “tankie” would apply to you.
I will talk about how renting is not bad when the person who “owns” property lives there and get a lot of flak.
nah it’s great being treated like a second class citizen by a fucking parasite with a part time job
Aigh’t, while i don’t believe in the premise of communism in human civilisation, i think socialism, without it getting over the freedom of people, is one of the way to ensure the future of humanity.
I believe a balanced amount of anarchism and socialism can, for a medium sized population, be good and sustainable on the long run.
Tho to be honest, i don’t know enough in politics to say an answer.
Why do you think this hypothetical solution is a good idea, and why not communism?
Because pure communism breaks as soon as you have more than a few hundreds of people living together, in my opinion.
We are not ants, and we as a specie are doing things more for ourselves than for others.
A hypothetical society wanting to approach to the closest version of communism would need to be terribly authoritarian and selective, and would be very vulnerable to non workers pushing down the economy. To live in communism means to not let freedom to the workers. It is as unsustainable as fordism.
I don’t know what you mean by “pure” communism. Communism is a mode of production based on collectivized production and distribution, it isn’t a religious vow. Humans are indeed not ants, I don’t see why you think people being self-interested gets in the way of collectivized and planned production and distribution. As for scale, communism works far better at larger scales, and I would say necessarily requires it. I think you may be confusing communism with communalism.
I don’t know what you mean by needing to be “authoritarian to non-workers,” especially because that’s the default in capitalism unless you’re a capitalist. You can have social safety nets while still having the labor necessary to keep society functioning and thriving.
Where did you get this idea of communism?
Looked up on an encyclopedia, i admit i have been actually confusing communism with communalism, or communism at its primal sense. I had the idea that communism is the abolishment of private property and the equal repartition of remuneration between people, wether they work hard or not. Kind of like the functionning of ants. Simply got this idea from high school honestly (heh).
Though, if communism is only about collectivised production and distribution, i can see why it would be interesting to successfully implement it.
Honestly, i haven’t got a good enough knowledge of political alignments yet to be able to answer your question correctly, thank you for making me understand that. Do you reccomand any reads/authors who approached this topic?
Funny you ask, I actually made an entire Marxist-Leninist introductory reading list! It’s designed to introduce key concepts and take you from no knowledge of political theory whatsoever into becoming a good cadre in any ML org. You obviously don’t need the whole thing, though, you can just read or listen to section 0a and you’ll be more than good, even just the first half of the section.
Communism, essentially, is economically compelled by the existing trends of capitalism, ie centralization of markets around a few firms and sprawling production and supply chains, as well as capitalism’s contradictions, like overproduction leading to crisis and the struggle between workers and owners (workers want more for their labor, owners want to pay them less). Collectivized production and distribution has a number of ways to account for labor and resource management, it’s far more complex than just getting everything for free.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Enlightened socialcentrism.
No
Not a fan of nation states. They divide the working class against themselves.
Pretty big difference between a capitalist state that divides the working class and socialist states that unify the working class. The era of borders dissolving is only really possible when socialism has become by far the dominant mode of production globally.
How do you propose we get rid of them? Because that is our end goal, which we make our plans toward reaching.
A big problem with most other leftists’ plans are their prefigurative politics. “Be the change you want to see in the world” doesn’t cut it while the world is significantly controlled by imperialist states. Until those capitalist states are dispensed with, socialist states don’t have the luxury of prefiguration, or they go the way of Allende’s Chile.
A (long) excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds: Anticommunism & Wonderland. Here’s a snippet:
The pure socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
The pure socialists had a vision of a new society that would create and be created by new people, a society so transformed in its fundaments as to leave little opportunity for wrongful acts, corruption, and criminal abuses of state power. There would be no bureaucracy or self-interested coteries, no ruthless conflicts or hurtful decisions. When the reality proves different and more difficult, some on the Left proceed to condemn the real thing and announce that they “feel betrayed” by this or that revolution.
The pure socialists see socialism as an ideal that was tarnished by communist venality, duplicity, and power cravings. The pure socialists oppose the Soviet model but offer little evidence to demonstrate that other paths could have been taken, that other models of socialism — not created from one’s imagination but developed through actual historical experience — could have taken hold and worked better. Was an open, pluralistic, democratic socialism actually possible at this historic juncture? The historical evidence would suggest it was not. As the political philosopher Carl Shames argued:
How do [the left critics] know that the fundamental problem was the “nature” of the ruling [revolutionary] parties rather than, say, the global concentration of capital that is destroying all independent economies and putting an end to national sovereignty everywhere? And to the extent that it was, where did this “nature” come from? Was this “nature” disembodied, disconnected from the fabric of the society itself, from the social relations impacting on it? … Thousands of examples could be found in which the centralization of power was a necessary choice in securing and protecting socialist relations. In my observation [of existing communist societies], the positive of “socialism” and the negative of “bureaucracy, authoritarianism and tyranny” interpenetrated in virtually every sphere of life.
The pure socialists regularly blame the Left itself for every defeat it suffers. Their second-guessing is endless. So we hear that revolutionary struggles fail because their leaders wait too long or act too soon, are too timid or too impulsive, too stubborn or too easily swayed. We hear that revolutionary leaders are compromising or adventuristic, bureaucratic or opportunistic, rigidly organized or insufficiently organized, undemocratic or failing to provide strong leadership. But always the leaders fail because they do not put their trust in the “direct actions” of the workers, who apparently would withstand and overcome every adversity if only given the kind of leadership available from the left critic’s own groupuscule. Unfortunately, the critics seem unable to apply their own leadership genius to producing a successful revolutionary movement in their own country.
Tony Febbo questioned this blame-the-leadership syndrome of the pure socialists:
It occurs to me that when people as smart, different, dedicated and heroic as Lenin, Mao, Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Ho Chi Minh and Robert Mugabe — and the millions of heroic people who followed and fought with them — all end up more or less in the same place, then something bigger is at work than who made what decision at what meeting. Or even what size houses they went home to after the meeting. …
These leaders weren’t in a vacuum. They were in a whirlwind. And the suction, the force, the power that was twirling them around has spun and left this globe mangled for more than 900 years. And to blame this or that theory or this or that leader is a simple-minded substitute for the kind of analysis that Marxists [should make].
To be sure, the pure socialists are not entirely without specific agendas for building the revolution. After the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua, an ultra-left group in that country called for direct worker ownership of the factories. The armed workers would take control of production without benefit of managers, state planners, bureaucrats, or a formal military. While undeniably appealing, this worker syndicalism denies the necessities of state power. Under such an arrangement, the Nicaraguan revolution would not have lasted two months against the U.S.-sponsored counterrevolution that savaged the country. It would have been unable to mobilize enough resources to field an army, take security measures, or build and coordinate economic programs and human services on a national scale.
For a people’s revolution to survive, it must seize state power and use it to (a) break the stranglehold exercised by the owning class over the society’s institutions and resources, and (b) withstand the reactionary counterattack that is sure to come. The internal and external dangers a revolution faces necessitate a centralized state power that is not particularly to anyone’s liking, not in Soviet Russia in 1917, nor in Sandinista Nicaragua in 1980.
Engels offers an apposite account of an uprising in Spain in 1872 in which anarchists seized power in municipalities across the country. At first, the situation looked promising. The king had abdicated and the bourgeois government could muster but a few thousand ill-trained troops. Yet this ragtag force prevailed because it faced a thoroughly parochialized rebellion. “Each town proclaimed itself as a sovereign canton and set up a revolutionary committee (junta);” Engels writes. “[E]ach town acted on its own, declaring that the important thing was not cooperation with other towns but separation from them, thus precluding any possibility of a combined attack [against bourgeois forces].” It was “the fragmentation and isolation of the revolutionary forces which enabled the government troops to smash one revolt after the other.”
Decentralized parochial autonomy is the graveyard of insurgency — which may be one reason why there has never been a successful anarcho-syndicalist revolution. Ideally, it would be a fine thing to have only local, self-directed, worker participation, with minimal bureaucracy, police, and military. This probably would be the development of socialism, were socialism ever allowed to develop unhindered by counterrevolutionary subversion and attack.
One might recall how, in 1918-20, fourteen capitalist nations, including the United States, invaded Soviet Russia in a bloody but unsuccessful attempt to overthrow the revolutionary Bolshevik government. The years of foreign invasion and civil war did much to intensify the Bolsheviks’ siege psychology with its commitment to lockstep party unity and a repressive security apparatus.
BTW, the Soviet Union wasn’t a nation-state and neither is China, but rather multinational states.
No.
I believe that both Palestine and Ukraine are being invaded by genocidal maniacs and both nations deserve support in fighting their oppressors.
Fuck Russia and its defenders. Fuck Israel and its defenders. Fuck the USA and its defenders, but the USA is right to help Ukraine and it should be helping Palestine.
The US Empire “supports” Ukraine for the same reason it supports Israel: both serve the economic interests of western imperialism by putting millitary pressure on the surrounding countries, often including terrorism or even genocide. Make no mistake, though, the US Empire isn’t helping Ukraine. It’s entrapping it in huge amounts of debt, sending shoddy equipment, and using them to deal as much damage to Russia as possible. Peace was on the table long ago, but the US Empire wants to milk Ukraine for everything it has and do as much damage to Russia as possible in order to pressure Russia into letting foreign capital overtake their economy like in the 90s.
Russia isn’t commiting genocide in Ukraine, it’s at war with Ukraine. Further, the secessionists in the Donbass region were the ones inviting Russia in, and Russia isn’t trying to take all of Ukraine. Russia wants the Donbass region, as it’s the land bridge into Russia, and demillitarization of Ukraine. Post-Euromaidan coup in 2014, Ukraine has been ruled by far-right nationalists that uphold Stepan Bandera, and this is what has caused such millitarization of Ukraine and a civil war between Kiev and the Donbass region.
The best support Ukraine can have right now is an expedient peace deal. Any “help” from the west comes in the form of shoddy gear and unlimited debt, and Russia has the means to continue the war and achieve its aims whether or not Ukraine continues getting NATO equipment. There’s no more support the west can give even if they were altruistic, the US is a paper tiger and can’t actually produce millitary equipment at a rate to keep up with conventional warfare.
As for Israel and Palestine, the US Empire will never help Palestine. Israel, like Ukraine, is a US vassel that pressures and terrorizes the surrounding area, such as Iran, Yemen, and of course Palestine. The US Empire uses both Israel and Ukraine as land-based semi-autonomous aircraft carriers to project hard power.
The reason the US Empire interacts with Ukraine and Israel, along with every country, is to continue the system of imperialism by which the global north plunders the global south. Nothing else matters to the US Empire than making as much profits as it can.