I think you’re trying really fucking hard to pretend that there are people there worth saving and it eats at me that your perspective is not only popular, but common.
These people are irredeemable. Their primary goals are to hurt others for their inalienable traits.
You don’t need these people. When the common opinion was such that they had to hide their shitty opinions, everyone was better off for it.
What you need, is people who don’t pay attention to pay attention. Stop focusing on the magas. You can never find compromise with them, nor convince them with reason, because all of the arguments they give are fundementally based on “I hate that person because they are the out group”.
That trumps literally everything else to them, as you are clearly seeing here. They are not outliers. Thats the common maga mentality.
You doing mental gymnastics to pretend that the common person just has to be good is a coping strategy that is killing you.
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote”
When has that been anyones political strategy. Thats what the right says it is (instead its trying to sell people on a DNC lead democrat party that fundementally does not want to offer noteworthy change).
Firstly, we should shame them, because the right wing is demonstrably awful, and pretending it has merit does no favours. That is what the DNC wants to do, and has done for the past… very long time.
So shame is not the solution, but its also not the problem.
Instead, the problem is that an average person here’s 2 people put up some arguments, doesnt think about it further, thinks “ah well both sides” and then stops thinking.
Left leaning people often don’t help this as they screech more loudly about the party closest to actually being moldable into something positive than they do the party doing harm, which helps keep precisely the group they need to convince the most in that valley of “both people are shouting, both sides I guess” and then that person stops caring.
Also,
we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism.
Creeping threat??? You’re currently trying to fight your way out and you call it a creeping threat. Just part of the problems.
My opinion on the world is that 50% of people don’t really care all that much about anything and have an extremely mild positive bias, 30% of people are just awful, and focus more on hurting others than making things better, and then 20% are the inverse of the 30%.
Your “solution” involves somehow convincing that 30% instead of figuring out whats stopping that 50% from figuring out how this will personally affect them, and to snap out of they’re “both sides” voter apathy/general apathy delusion.
Part of the problem is that their position is self defeating. They think nothing works, everything is corrupt, and so there is no point doing anything, and that entrenches all of those problems, making them even worse.
Thats the real struggle; getting them both to see the personal threat to themselves (as they don’t care about the larger picture) and then getting them to see that they do in fact have none bloody death alternatives to that.
All of this just emphasizes how disastrous it was that the democrats folded and didn’t let people see the consequences of their actions with the government shutdown.
Wow you’re really cheesed. Like I said in my first sentence, I don’t support those views or people with those views. Ive worked with people who are do try to reach over and convince the MAGAs and frankly they’re the worst. I’m not one of them I’m asking a question about the middle, the exact folks you are talking about.
But to someone who genuinely thinks that immigration threatens their jobs, their logic based in the education they received, the news they consume, the ambient culture.
My question is how do you do that? How do you reach the people in the middle who are most affected, fearful, worried, and hence easy to manipulate ideologically?
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
What “solution” did I even offer? I asked a fucking question. This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid? Let me ask you, who are you recruiting to the cause? What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this. Fucking relax.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid?
Fucking relax.
Jumping to trolling with the comment equivalent to “u mad bro?” while pretending to care about civility is wild.
This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
This right here is straight projection, especially given clearly some others thought my comment fit perfectly/was a reasonable interpretation of yours.
What “solution” did I even offer?
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote” we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism. In 5-10 years it will be full on Nazi shit and I dont want to die in a concentration camp please and thank you
You are clearly suggesting that not shaming the fascists is part of the solution here and now you’re feigning ignorance to having said that.
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
and
I asked a fucking question.
Yeah, nah. Now, with the rest of the comment as context this seems more like an effort to sealion than a real question, especially with you saying:
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
Which completely changes who you’re portraying yourself to be and asks me to waste my time with a right wing talking point that is now suddenly the focus, as if the uncaring people think this is a major point anyways.
I probably spent to much effort responding to this comment that is clearly actually in bad faith.
I mean look at this shit:
What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this.
One thing alone would help shift the Overton Window MASSIVELY in a country like the USA - mandatory voting. If everyone who had the right to vote actually voted, Republicans would never hold federal government ever again and would only be able to hold onto a couple of states and a few dozen local governments across the nation.
Without mandatory voting, Republicans can become more and more egregious in seeking to rally voters while simultaneously painting the whole establishment as broken which essentially disenfranchises the non-voting centre. With it, they’d have to seriously moderate their platforms to have any hope of forming government ever again. It would likely cause a party split that would then coalesce again into a two-party coalition on the right, starting the efforts to break down the two-party system.
If you introduce ranked choice voting as well, that’ll speed up the dismantling of the two-party system, but just mandatory voting alone would prevent Trump and his ilk from ever being in power again.
One thing alone would help shift the Overton Window MASSIVELY in a country like the USA - mandatory voting. If everyone who had the right to vote actually voted, Republicans would never hold federal government ever again and would only be able to hold onto a couple of states and a few dozen local governments across the nation.
The problem with “solutions” like this (and I actually don’t even think this would fix things vs any number of other solutions in a similar vein), is that these aren’t solutions. These are vague wishlist goals, and very much so have all the hard parts of getting there removed.
Like I think every country having proportional representation would improve the quality of their politicians and government massively, but good luck getting the establishment politicians who benefit from the old system to give that up.
If you introduce ranked choice voting as well,
Im always super shocked at why anyone likes ranked choice voting. It doesnt actually solve the 2 party system at all.
Proportional voting is what solves that. Ranked choice just means that 2 party system has a slightly higher chance of changing who the 2 parties are.
This is the part that always gets me laughing. At the level of effort that would be necessary to actually get voting reform, we might as well just overthrow the government. That is how difficult it would be, it would require a nationwide coordinated mass movement hitherto unseen in the United States, and it would only really solve one of our problems.
I think it would actually solve a huge swath of problems, but absolutely yes its ridiculous to state as a solution just as we both agree.
As for the overthrowing the government part, I think that given they’re both at the same levels of difficulty, Id probably opt for the one that also accomplishes the practical goals and doesnt end up in half of us being bloody pulp on the ground.
it really doesn’t. It would start the process of fixing the problems, but you then still need to take money out of politics, curb the right-wing misinformation machine, introduce and pass widespread economic, education, and equality reform, all the while billionaires will continue to do everything in their power to bribe the multitude of parties to halt progress.
If they’re both the same level of difficulty, I’d rather fix all the problems at once, rather than take step one of a hundred.
If they’re both the same level of difficulty, I’d rather fix all the problems at once
Neither fixes all the problems at once. People keep holding onto the ideas of some hail mary that wins the “game” and it aint coming.
Proportional representation would break 2 party and be one of many steps. People would be able to vote for one of many parties and no0 longer would throwing away your vote with a third party be a thing.
rather than take step one of a hundred.
Many steps is the only way to eventually fix things. Your basically faced with a highly liable to fail, bloody fictional solution you wont do, and the long, diet and exercise you swear wont work.
I think you’re trying really fucking hard to pretend that there are people there worth saving and it eats at me that your perspective is not only popular, but common.
These people are irredeemable. Their primary goals are to hurt others for their inalienable traits.
You don’t need these people. When the common opinion was such that they had to hide their shitty opinions, everyone was better off for it.
What you need, is people who don’t pay attention to pay attention. Stop focusing on the magas. You can never find compromise with them, nor convince them with reason, because all of the arguments they give are fundementally based on “I hate that person because they are the out group”.
That trumps literally everything else to them, as you are clearly seeing here. They are not outliers. Thats the common maga mentality.
You doing mental gymnastics to pretend that the common person just has to be good is a coping strategy that is killing you.
When has that been anyones political strategy. Thats what the right says it is (instead its trying to sell people on a DNC lead democrat party that fundementally does not want to offer noteworthy change).
Firstly, we should shame them, because the right wing is demonstrably awful, and pretending it has merit does no favours. That is what the DNC wants to do, and has done for the past… very long time.
So shame is not the solution, but its also not the problem.
Instead, the problem is that an average person here’s 2 people put up some arguments, doesnt think about it further, thinks “ah well both sides” and then stops thinking.
Left leaning people often don’t help this as they screech more loudly about the party closest to actually being moldable into something positive than they do the party doing harm, which helps keep precisely the group they need to convince the most in that valley of “both people are shouting, both sides I guess” and then that person stops caring.
Also,
Creeping threat??? You’re currently trying to fight your way out and you call it a creeping threat. Just part of the problems.
My opinion on the world is that 50% of people don’t really care all that much about anything and have an extremely mild positive bias, 30% of people are just awful, and focus more on hurting others than making things better, and then 20% are the inverse of the 30%.
Your “solution” involves somehow convincing that 30% instead of figuring out whats stopping that 50% from figuring out how this will personally affect them, and to snap out of they’re “both sides” voter apathy/general apathy delusion.
Part of the problem is that their position is self defeating. They think nothing works, everything is corrupt, and so there is no point doing anything, and that entrenches all of those problems, making them even worse.
Thats the real struggle; getting them both to see the personal threat to themselves (as they don’t care about the larger picture) and then getting them to see that they do in fact have none bloody death alternatives to that.
All of this just emphasizes how disastrous it was that the democrats folded and didn’t let people see the consequences of their actions with the government shutdown.
Wow you’re really cheesed. Like I said in my first sentence, I don’t support those views or people with those views. Ive worked with people who are do try to reach over and convince the MAGAs and frankly they’re the worst. I’m not one of them I’m asking a question about the middle, the exact folks you are talking about.
But to someone who genuinely thinks that immigration threatens their jobs, their logic based in the education they received, the news they consume, the ambient culture.
My question is how do you do that? How do you reach the people in the middle who are most affected, fearful, worried, and hence easy to manipulate ideologically?
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
What “solution” did I even offer? I asked a fucking question. This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid? Let me ask you, who are you recruiting to the cause? What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this. Fucking relax.
Jumping to trolling with the comment equivalent to “u mad bro?” while pretending to care about civility is wild.
This right here is straight projection, especially given clearly some others thought my comment fit perfectly/was a reasonable interpretation of yours.
You are clearly suggesting that not shaming the fascists is part of the solution here and now you’re feigning ignorance to having said that.
and
Yeah, nah. Now, with the rest of the comment as context this seems more like an effort to sealion than a real question, especially with you saying:
Which completely changes who you’re portraying yourself to be and asks me to waste my time with a right wing talking point that is now suddenly the focus, as if the uncaring people think this is a major point anyways.
I probably spent to much effort responding to this comment that is clearly actually in bad faith.
I mean look at this shit:
Pure right wing, 4chan style ragebait trolling.
One thing alone would help shift the Overton Window MASSIVELY in a country like the USA - mandatory voting. If everyone who had the right to vote actually voted, Republicans would never hold federal government ever again and would only be able to hold onto a couple of states and a few dozen local governments across the nation.
Without mandatory voting, Republicans can become more and more egregious in seeking to rally voters while simultaneously painting the whole establishment as broken which essentially disenfranchises the non-voting centre. With it, they’d have to seriously moderate their platforms to have any hope of forming government ever again. It would likely cause a party split that would then coalesce again into a two-party coalition on the right, starting the efforts to break down the two-party system.
If you introduce ranked choice voting as well, that’ll speed up the dismantling of the two-party system, but just mandatory voting alone would prevent Trump and his ilk from ever being in power again.
The problem with “solutions” like this (and I actually don’t even think this would fix things vs any number of other solutions in a similar vein), is that these aren’t solutions. These are vague wishlist goals, and very much so have all the hard parts of getting there removed.
Like I think every country having proportional representation would improve the quality of their politicians and government massively, but good luck getting the establishment politicians who benefit from the old system to give that up.
Im always super shocked at why anyone likes ranked choice voting. It doesnt actually solve the 2 party system at all.
Proportional voting is what solves that. Ranked choice just means that 2 party system has a slightly higher chance of changing who the 2 parties are.
This is the part that always gets me laughing. At the level of effort that would be necessary to actually get voting reform, we might as well just overthrow the government. That is how difficult it would be, it would require a nationwide coordinated mass movement hitherto unseen in the United States, and it would only really solve one of our problems.
I think it would actually solve a huge swath of problems, but absolutely yes its ridiculous to state as a solution just as we both agree.
As for the overthrowing the government part, I think that given they’re both at the same levels of difficulty, Id probably opt for the one that also accomplishes the practical goals and doesnt end up in half of us being bloody pulp on the ground.
it really doesn’t. It would start the process of fixing the problems, but you then still need to take money out of politics, curb the right-wing misinformation machine, introduce and pass widespread economic, education, and equality reform, all the while billionaires will continue to do everything in their power to bribe the multitude of parties to halt progress.
If they’re both the same level of difficulty, I’d rather fix all the problems at once, rather than take step one of a hundred.
Neither fixes all the problems at once. People keep holding onto the ideas of some hail mary that wins the “game” and it aint coming.
Proportional representation would break 2 party and be one of many steps. People would be able to vote for one of many parties and no0 longer would throwing away your vote with a third party be a thing.
Many steps is the only way to eventually fix things. Your basically faced with a highly liable to fail, bloody fictional solution you wont do, and the long, diet and exercise you swear wont work.