I don’t know how you got “only focused on the presidential election for four years” fromy previous post.
That would be the context of the thread you were responding to. As in:
Maybe if the SJWs would fucking pay attention in between elections and not pout and withhold their votes on Election Day…
And, yeah, limiting the focus to visibility campaigns on social media does mean that the focus is limited to visibility campaigns. So, you know, don’t do that. There are plenty of orgs doing lots of work, and complaining about this poster’s visibility campaign or that poster’s lack of practical activity on social media is an exercise in second-ordrr futility. Expect activity other than visibility campaigns in places where activity other than visibility campaigns can actually happen, and not on social media where they mostly can’t.
I still see no context for “they should only focus on presidential elections” from “maybe if they paid attention in between elections, and not pout and withhold votes on election day”.
The only time we hear them complain is when the presidential election comes up, so if we take that as a standard and ask them to focus on between that means pay attention to the elections that aren’t the presidential one…
I am active in non social media campaigns, so when I see the lack of support there but massive support on social media every four years, it does drive the narrative that they don’t care in between for the people that could actually do what they want.
They’re complaining about the final product while not involving themselves in any step of the process getting there, WHICH INCLUDES GETTING THE LOCAL REPS ELECTED TO SWAY THE DIRECTION OF THE PARTY BEYOND JUST THE PRESIDENT.
Ahh… so, we can just make up all the unverifiable work all the SJWs do so as to have a counter-argument.
Okay. Let’s assume this is a proven point and go with that.
If there actually is a lot of work in-between elections… then it’s NOT done by SJWs. Maybe understand that the term “SJW” is not all-encompassing. It doesn’t include people actually doing work.
It’s a short-hand derogatory to mean- keyboard warriors that whine about social unjust and do nothing else.
How are you verifying the existence of these keyboard warriors who only whine? I know plenty of people politically active in my community who also have a penchant for arguing online. It is somewhat more difficult for me to verify the behavior of people who I only know online, owing to the fact that I can only tell what those people do by what they post and what makes it way to my feeds.
So are you going to seriously suggest that there aren’t any movements during election years that tell people not to vote? Because I’ll have you remember something called “Bernie Bros” which as I recall, were urging people NOT to vote in 2016, and in 2020 some of them even voted for Trump.
THOSE PEOPLE WERE/ARE SJWS.
You’re too tied up in trying to defend people who aren’t considered SJWs. I’m not talkin g about the people you are. So just stop man.
We probably agree on this here but you’re FAR too busy defending people I’m not even talking about.
It’s essentially the newer slang-term for “keyboard warrior”
Treating Bernie Bros and SJWs as interchangeable is a new one to me (overlapping, I suppose, but I remember some quite rabid anti-SJW Bernie Bros and visa versa), but I’ll grant you that both camps get hit with the keyboard warriors when they’re online, regardless of how active they are in meatspace.
And I’m less trying to defend them as I am calling out the absolute futility of trying to do activism beyond visibility and outreach campaigns online, and judging someone’s political efficacy based solely on their online output.
If we want to build movements that actually, y’know, have political power to do something, it takes a lot more offline work (even if the online work can shine a light on good offline work)
Well, what I’m talking about- and always have been- are the people urging everyone not to vote- while pretending to give a shit about things happening in other countries. Those using the suffering of other people as a platform to get people to not vote- either because thy are so misguided and ignorant about how things work, or are actively trying to work against democracy.
Regardless of the reason- not voting doesn’t fix the problem. Regardless of the term “SJW” or whatever you wish to call them- THEY are who I’m talking about.
You realize that voting alone is very nearly politically irrelevant? Especially if your vote is reducible to an anonymous voting bloc? That most of the work that goes into making your vote mean something happens well before election day? Like, just voting on election days, no matter how many off-year election cycles and special elections someone votes in, if they aren’t participating in an political movement that is properly reflective of their vote, then their share of political power is merely given over to someone else. The places where someone’s vote has the most impact are the places where they’re treated as an afterthought.
Like, consider the electoral college, and how the votes break down in most urban areas (which tend to be where most Internet users live). The margins in most urban areas tend to be very much in Democrat favor, so spending all your resources to win a few more votes (or even stop a small amount of votes being lost) does not actually result in very many, if any, additional EC votes. You could focus exclusively on a presidential race for unpopular candidates and pour all your effort into that for marginal value.
Or you could realize the top of the ballot is of limited value and in fact can be severely abridged by the down ballot races if overlooked(if we need reminders of “Vote Blue No Matter Who”'s shortcomings, please reference Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema), and realize that browbeating people into voting for a particular candidate instead of getting people engaged about things they care about is a way to burn out your political powerbase.
If you get real fancy, you can even realize that losing a particular election is mitigatable by on the ground action, and building political structures that don’t rely upon the government to do all the hard work and never be out of the political favor of the party in power.
If only people here bothered to try and understand how nuanced actual politics are and that shit can’t be simplified so easily just because you happen to think in simple terms.
What outcomes they get from not voting really depends on what they’re doing outside of electoral politics. I get it: you’re really invested in the election and maybe have went all in on the outcome of Biden v. Trump, and, to be fair, it’s a damnably important election and Trump getting the seat again will do a ton of damage.
But you know what I learned from previous elections? No matter how much I personally care, or personally do, I might still wind up living under a Republican presidency bent on making my life worse. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna throw my hands up and say nothing can be done.
Building on-the-ground support networks and working together to build enough political power to make waves in elections is where it’s at, as far as I’m concerned. I’m concerned about the outcomes of the elections, certainly, but the better we’re able to help each other, the less impact an election (and therefore someone not voting) has.
That would be the context of the thread you were responding to. As in:
And, yeah, limiting the focus to visibility campaigns on social media does mean that the focus is limited to visibility campaigns. So, you know, don’t do that. There are plenty of orgs doing lots of work, and complaining about this poster’s visibility campaign or that poster’s lack of practical activity on social media is an exercise in second-ordrr futility. Expect activity other than visibility campaigns in places where activity other than visibility campaigns can actually happen, and not on social media where they mostly can’t.
I still see no context for “they should only focus on presidential elections” from “maybe if they paid attention in between elections, and not pout and withhold votes on election day”.
The only time we hear them complain is when the presidential election comes up, so if we take that as a standard and ask them to focus on between that means pay attention to the elections that aren’t the presidential one… I am active in non social media campaigns, so when I see the lack of support there but massive support on social media every four years, it does drive the narrative that they don’t care in between for the people that could actually do what they want. They’re complaining about the final product while not involving themselves in any step of the process getting there, WHICH INCLUDES GETTING THE LOCAL REPS ELECTED TO SWAY THE DIRECTION OF THE PARTY BEYOND JUST THE PRESIDENT.
Ahh… so, we can just make up all the unverifiable work all the SJWs do so as to have a counter-argument.
Okay. Let’s assume this is a proven point and go with that.
If there actually is a lot of work in-between elections… then it’s NOT done by SJWs. Maybe understand that the term “SJW” is not all-encompassing. It doesn’t include people actually doing work.
It’s a short-hand derogatory to mean- keyboard warriors that whine about social unjust and do nothing else.
THOSE are the people I’m referencing. Savvy?
How are you verifying the existence of these keyboard warriors who only whine? I know plenty of people politically active in my community who also have a penchant for arguing online. It is somewhat more difficult for me to verify the behavior of people who I only know online, owing to the fact that I can only tell what those people do by what they post and what makes it way to my feeds.
I count how many are moaning in my local message boards vs the people that show up for actual actions in person. The difference is staggering.
So are you going to seriously suggest that there aren’t any movements during election years that tell people not to vote? Because I’ll have you remember something called “Bernie Bros” which as I recall, were urging people NOT to vote in 2016, and in 2020 some of them even voted for Trump.
THOSE PEOPLE WERE/ARE SJWS.
You’re too tied up in trying to defend people who aren’t considered SJWs. I’m not talkin g about the people you are. So just stop man.
We probably agree on this here but you’re FAR too busy defending people I’m not even talking about.
It’s essentially the newer slang-term for “keyboard warrior”
Treating Bernie Bros and SJWs as interchangeable is a new one to me (overlapping, I suppose, but I remember some quite rabid anti-SJW Bernie Bros and visa versa), but I’ll grant you that both camps get hit with the keyboard warriors when they’re online, regardless of how active they are in meatspace.
And I’m less trying to defend them as I am calling out the absolute futility of trying to do activism beyond visibility and outreach campaigns online, and judging someone’s political efficacy based solely on their online output.
If we want to build movements that actually, y’know, have political power to do something, it takes a lot more offline work (even if the online work can shine a light on good offline work)
He just hates everyone to Netanyahu’s left.
Well, what I’m talking about- and always have been- are the people urging everyone not to vote- while pretending to give a shit about things happening in other countries. Those using the suffering of other people as a platform to get people to not vote- either because thy are so misguided and ignorant about how things work, or are actively trying to work against democracy.
Regardless of the reason- not voting doesn’t fix the problem. Regardless of the term “SJW” or whatever you wish to call them- THEY are who I’m talking about.
You realize that voting alone is very nearly politically irrelevant? Especially if your vote is reducible to an anonymous voting bloc? That most of the work that goes into making your vote mean something happens well before election day? Like, just voting on election days, no matter how many off-year election cycles and special elections someone votes in, if they aren’t participating in an political movement that is properly reflective of their vote, then their share of political power is merely given over to someone else. The places where someone’s vote has the most impact are the places where they’re treated as an afterthought.
Like, consider the electoral college, and how the votes break down in most urban areas (which tend to be where most Internet users live). The margins in most urban areas tend to be very much in Democrat favor, so spending all your resources to win a few more votes (or even stop a small amount of votes being lost) does not actually result in very many, if any, additional EC votes. You could focus exclusively on a presidential race for unpopular candidates and pour all your effort into that for marginal value.
Or you could realize the top of the ballot is of limited value and in fact can be severely abridged by the down ballot races if overlooked(if we need reminders of “Vote Blue No Matter Who”'s shortcomings, please reference Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema), and realize that browbeating people into voting for a particular candidate instead of getting people engaged about things they care about is a way to burn out your political powerbase.
If you get real fancy, you can even realize that losing a particular election is mitigatable by on the ground action, and building political structures that don’t rely upon the government to do all the hard work and never be out of the political favor of the party in power.
Cool. So not voting is still not going to bring change either. So…
We can agree to disagree. I’m not down with debating the topic where it’s required to read walls of text that are mostly irrelevant to the point.
Not voting is NOT going to create the change these idiots want. Period.
End of story.
What outcomes they get from not voting really depends on what they’re doing outside of electoral politics. I get it: you’re really invested in the election and maybe have went all in on the outcome of Biden v. Trump, and, to be fair, it’s a damnably important election and Trump getting the seat again will do a ton of damage.
But you know what I learned from previous elections? No matter how much I personally care, or personally do, I might still wind up living under a Republican presidency bent on making my life worse. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna throw my hands up and say nothing can be done.
Building on-the-ground support networks and working together to build enough political power to make waves in elections is where it’s at, as far as I’m concerned. I’m concerned about the outcomes of the elections, certainly, but the better we’re able to help each other, the less impact an election (and therefore someone not voting) has.