• endeavor@sopuli.xyz
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    7 hours ago

    If your group can’t take a joke, your group is a joke. Especially if it is abusive imaginary parent who according to you does everything that is wrong with the world in order to “build character” and overall rules through fear only.

  • satans_methpipe@lemmy.world
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    19 hours ago

    Murdering humans over a drawing is a sensitive topic for me. Please do not expect civility when discussing ancient barbaric pre-scientific belief systems.

    • Crikeste@lemm.ee
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      15 hours ago

      By that same thought process, don’t expect civility when you’re making fun of and disparaging people’s religions.

      🤷🏼‍♂️

      Just saying, you might want to think about what your advocating for and the hypocrisy behind it.

      • satans_methpipe@lemmy.world
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        15 hours ago

        Adults who are afraid of sky Grandpa are never civil. I think your statement is intended as a roundabout threat.

  • irotsoma@lemmy.world
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    21 hours ago

    Satire is a necessary way to call out impropriety in Democratic society. The humor softens the blow of the reality of horrible acts and makes less horrible but still bad acts easier to understand. As long as it’s not saying things that are just totally without merit or using it purely to spread hate, it should be staunchly defended regardless of who is offended by it.

    Example of bad satire is something like a cartoon of an LGBTQ+ person going to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist saying it’s a mental illness and their head explodes. This is pushing the narrative that being gay is something to be cured and that gay people just can’t accept it. This can be considered satire, but like any type of speech it’s stating something designed to harm others. Satire is meant to over-exaggerate a problem, not make up a problem that doesn’t actually exist for the express purpose of hate.

  • Tedesche@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    I think most people would agree with the following: even if you feel the cartoon was in poor taste or was “punching down,” the shooting was a terrorist act that just served to reinforce the worst stereotypes about Muslims and—ironically—the offending cartoon itself.

    Opinions can vary about the cartoon, but that’s the point of defending satire and free speech; what’s completely indefensible is violence that clearly isn’t in the service of self-defense. People who quibble about the definition of self-defense and even skirt the idea that the terrorists in this incident had a right to do what they did, in my opinion, are likely either sophomoric contrarians or bad faith actors intentionally trying to muddy the waters, akin to some far-right militia members on conservative subreddits.

  • Zozano@aussie.zone
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    1 day ago

    It says a lot that there’s only one religion that I’m scared to criticize.

    12 people were killed for publishing a cartoon of Muhammad.

    A teacher was beheaded for showing a drawing of Muhammad.

    Cartoonist drew Muhammad, leading to Danish embassies being attacked and riots broke out and people died. Later, people broke into his house to try to kill him.

    Cartoonist had to live under police protection because of threats.

    Creators of South Park were threatened for including Muhammad in an episode of the show.

    These were just a few from the FIRST PAGE of a search engine, AND outside of Muslim majority countries.

    This is before even considering every other ‘provocation’, leading to incidences like:

    Salman Rushdie being stabbed on stage

    A teacher forced into hiding for showing a picture of mahammad

    • MDCCCLV@lemmy.ca
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      14 hours ago

      It’s time based. Buddhism also had a similar ban on iconic representation of the Buddha. That’s why some early art will just have footprints or things like that. Islam should allow iconic representation of their prophet within 300 years.

  • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    A week ago I was in line to check out and there was a young woman in a hijab. When she turned to help me I saw her entire face and hands (all I could see really) had acid burns all over.

    The paradox of tolerance will never be something I struggle with once The Fall happens. Regardless for whichever religion seeks to lynch me.

  • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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    2 days ago

    Satire should be staunchly defended. Some people may find it offensive and they can go fuck themselves.

    Satirical publications are often the last free press able to publish in authoritarian governments and have often played a critical role in communication to weaken oppressive regimes.

    We can all occasionally suffer jokes in bad taste in exchange for freedom of the press.

    • jimmy90@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      if it was far-right satire i would feel pretty shit about it but it should probably still be allowed (?)

    • Ugurcan@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      While I agree with Satire should be staunchly defended, I can’t see a way for that to happen when you hit a nerve with a greathammer repeatedly.

      So as a society we can show our full stance besides satire, but showing a stance, even with millions of people, could stop them getting killed by a two radicals? It appears not.

      So what should we do, put State Police in front of their door? I think police standing in front of every satire outlet would be a satire itself.

    • richieadler@lemmy.world
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      19 hours ago

      Well, he may have a point there, bit this is the same guy who promotes racial screening in airports in spite of repeated refutations of the usefulness of such measures by a security expert, so…

      • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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        18 hours ago

        I’ve listened to maybe 10-15 hours of Sam Harris and I’ve never heard him say that. Can you source that?

    • triptrapper@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      I’m sure there are folks here who have listened to a lot more Sam Harris than I have, but I’ve listened to several audiobooks and probably 40-50 hours of his podcast. He has some smart things to say about neuroscience and mindfulness, but my god he has some toxic, middle-school-ass takes on Islam. I haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m not surprised he said it. He’s Ben Shapiro with a PhD who makes deliberately obtuse, reductive, bad faith statements about Islam and Muslims.

      For the record, I’m a white atheist. I think religion has been the source of immeasurable violence in the world. I don’t think anyone should be shot over something they say or draw, but to declare “end of moral analysis” is ignorant.

    • MDCCCLV@lemmy.ca
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      14 hours ago

      You don’t think a sovereign country can have a state religion if everyone in the country is part of that religion and wants it that way?

      • darth_grunkus@lemmy.world
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        8 hours ago

        There are exactly zero countries that are so homogenous that you can say that literally everyone is of the same religion.

  • Hemingways_Shotgun@lemmy.ca
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    2 days ago

    As in everything in life, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

    If you don’t like the satire of Charlie Hebdo, your right is to not read it. If you don’t like a comedian who makes pedo jokes, your right is to not buy their tickets. If you don’t like a TV show that shows drug use, your right is to not watch it.

    That’s it. That’s the end of your personal rights on that issue. You do NOT have the right to tell other people what they personally view, watch, read, etc…

    If enough people share your view, that publication/comedian/show will either change or go out of business naturally because of lack of subscribers. That’s how it works.

    I personally find Charlie Hebdo to be racist twits. But that doesn’t give me any right to kill them. I have the right to just ignore them.

      • Hemingways_Shotgun@lemmy.ca
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        2 days ago

        “Racist” is probably too strong a word, you’re right.

        I think “Tasteless” is more fitting. Racist would imply that they “satirise” some groups while protecting others, while Charlie Hebdo paints everyone with the same tasteless brush.

        • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          Reminds me of something my coworker was telling me about Leah Michele from the show Glee. A black cast mate accused her of being racist and the the rest of the cast essentially said “nah, she’s a total bitch to pretty much everyone”

        • oce 🐆@jlai.luOP
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          1 day ago

          This is a satire of right wing politics (which Charlie notably opposed) claiming that poor people make more babies to get more social welfare, with denounciation of islamist organization Boko Haram using women as sex slaves, both mixed to create absurd comedy.
          Explain what you find racist about this.

        • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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          2 days ago

          Not sure what it says, but as Charlie Hebdo makes fun of everyone, and usually for a good reason, what is the problem?

  • Hanrahan@slrpnk.net
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    2 days ago

    It was depressing that every newspaper in the developed world didn’t print the cartoon :(

    • Valmond@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      They sold millions of them here in France though but yeah you’re right. Especially the Danes who backed down then and again.

    • Ugurcan@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      In respect to their Muslim readers. Whatever you think, for Muslims, including me, it’s profane to picture Mohammad, as much it’s profane to picture Jesus fucking Peter in the ass.

      Even if there’s no reasoning behind it, respecting 1.8 billion people’s sensibilities should be the niceness I’d like to see in the world.

      • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        The price of living in a free society is being ready to accept other people’s speech. In the West we had an Enlightenment, so blasphemy is not against the law. Christians would indeed find a picture of “Jesus fucking Peter in the ass” offensive, but they will sigh and move on. Same for all the other world religions.

        Only your religion treats offense as a justification for extreme violence. You need to think carefully about that fact.

        • Ugurcan@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          Thank you very much for informing me about my religion and everyone else’s high and developed society.

          But please take a moment to check what you embraced as “the” civilized fellows done in Gaza, breaking 4 years old kids ribs with their knees. You need to think careful about that fact.

          • JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            The question was not about Gaza.

            I’m offended, very offended actually, when Muslims (and not only) suggest that some brutally murdered cartoonists had it coming because of their “disrespect”. At least as offended as you could possibly be offended by some picture. Your religion needs reform. It needs to learn tolerance.

            • Ugurcan@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              Oh, so when we come into some other religion’s “higher stance” is just being an illusion, a propaganda to see “colonizers superior culture” is why they have free pass on crimes towards the oppressed, suddenly it wasn’t about that, huh. Like, they would never ever do such things. Except they do massacres, daily.

              I’d like to see how “developed” MAGAs or AFD people to react to Jesus and Peter published on every “developed” newspaper’s front page, as the commenter I’ve replied suggested. Run over the newspapers stands with a truck? Then step down and shoot around? Maybe they aim to kids. That’ll show’em.

              Extremism is everywhere. No belief, religion or politic stance, is exempt from it. I didn’t said a thing about Hebdo, just surprised to see how people in 2025 taking worse stances than George Bush in 2004 when it’s about Islam.

      • iii@mander.xyz
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        2 days ago

        Should homosexuality be banned, to respect 1.8 billion people’s sensibilities?

        • Ugurcan@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          It’s always someone comes to build a strawman whenever one mentions Muslims could have some sensibilities.

  • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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    2 days ago

    Satire should be free. Hate speech should not. People shouldn’t be killed for either. I don’t particularly cry when bigots die though.

    All that said, there’s reasons some jokes just aren’t worth telling. There’s times and spaces, and for some jokes there’s neither and that’s ok.

    • SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world
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      17 hours ago

      Yeah but what is hate speech when it comes to religion? For hardcore religious people blasphemy is hate speech. Like when that French teacher just showed drawings of Muhammed in historical context it was enough reason for a Muslim to kill him.

      • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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        15 hours ago

        If you don’t know what hate speech is I don’t know what to tell you. Or are you doing the equivalent of the “what is a woman” nonsense?

        I made a few statements.

        1. Satire is fine. Agree/ disagree? I think we agree

        2. Hate speech is not. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree

        3. Neither should come with a death penalty? Agree disagree? I hope we agree

        4. I personally don’t cry over dead bigots. A personal statement. Undebatable unless you want to call me a liar.

        5. There’s a time and space for jokes. For some jokes there’s neither. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree.

        • Oderus@lemmy.world
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          14 hours ago

          I think his response was clear. Hate speech can be twisted into anything you want as it’s just an opinion.

          • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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            14 hours ago

            I thought they were disagreeing with point two, I don’t want to jump to conclusions though. Social media is full of “so you think [extreme nonsense here]” I am trying to be better than that.

            I dunno. I was around for the “it’s PC culture gone mad” position from yonder year. Their comment was similar to arguments made back then about racism, transphobia, homophobia, any protected class really.

    • Sprocketfree@sh.itjust.works
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      1 day ago

      Is making fun of a religion hate speech? Like religion is a choice to embrace so its kind of weird that it’s a protected class, despite the pilgrims fleeing it.

      • richieadler@lemmy.world
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        19 hours ago

        Is making fun of a religion hate speech?

        Many believers seem to think so. Then again, they think it’s “hate speech” to show the contradictions of their “holy” book, so…

      • GrumpyDuckling@sh.itjust.works
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        20 hours ago

        It depends. If they have blatant hypocrisy and hatred towards others or they’re manipulating laws based on their weird beliefs, or using their religion as an excuse to abuse people then yeah, it’s open season on that. If you’re just making fun of someone because of their funny looking hat, then you’re just being an AH.

      • Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com
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        18 hours ago

        As in most things: it depends. Your question is too broad for an answer lacking nuance. But why did you ask?

  • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    I think the people’s presumption that they have some right to be free from offense has done way more damage than anything.

  • NutinButNet@hilariouschaos.com
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    2 days ago

    We pull back too much because Islamic nutjobs will get violent because you dared draw a picture that resembled their stupid prophet. By doing that, we are giving them what they want and telling other religious groups that if they get violent enough, we’ll stop to appease them too.

    You can mock Jesus, Moses, Krishna and any other religious figure because their followers, at worse, are going to verbally protest, if they do anything at all. But draw fucking Muhammad and people will tell you to knock it off because we don’t want to upset the assholes who will riot and kill people because they can’t handle someone having a differing opinion. Society bends over backwards to not offend Islam out of fear.

    In response, we should have doubled down. Make more cartoons, get more vulgar with it…go all in, not stopped to appease them. Some people did for a while immediately after the attack, but not enough and not long enough, imo.

    • Not_mikey@slrpnk.net
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      2 days ago

      Would your response be the same if an outright racist or transphobic comic was murdered? Would you spread racist and transphobic content to assert your free speech?

      Society bends over backwards to not offend Islam out of fear.

      Not drawing cartoons is not bending over backwards. If they were trying to get women being veiled, or ban abortions or homosexuality then yeah we should tell them to fuck off. But if they’re just asking to not say a word or draw something that isn’t necessary to political dialog then it’s fair for society to respect that. It should be enforced by being ostracized not killed though.

      People shouldn’t be shot for saying the n word but if someone did get shot for saying it we shouldn’t all go around saying the n word because being intentionally offensive is still a dick move. Again not one that should be punished with death.

      • NutinButNet@hilariouschaos.com
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        2 days ago

        Would your response be the same if an outright racist or transphobic comic was murdered? Would you spread racist and transphobic content to assert your free speech?

        Sure, why not? I feel that way about Dave Chappelle and the crap he got for making jokes about “the t” in LGBT. We can make jokes about everyone else but as soon as it comes to transgender people, that’s off limits? No. Don’t think so. Carry on, Dave. He did exactly what I recommended here by doubling down when people made a big deal over it.

        But if they’re just asking to not say a word or draw something that isn’t necessary to political dialog then it’s fair for society to respect that. It should be enforced by being ostracized not killed though.

        There are Christians who ask for this and it is absolutely not respected. There were protests for things like “The Last Temptation of Christ” and many other media since and instead society continues to poke fun at Jesus.

        So why is it respected when it comes to Muhammad but not for Jesus despite a portion of the population asking for him to not be satirized? Is it because they’re not vocal enough? Or is it because people fear for their lives because psychos murder over a cartoon?

    • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      On the other side, if you do double down and get vulgar then you’ll find lot of racists joining in with you. That’s the dilemma of criticizing or satirizing Islam while also staying away from xenophobes.

      • NutinButNet@hilariouschaos.com
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        2 days ago

        Why doesn’t the same happen for Hinduism? It’s mocked relentlessly and is predominately practiced by non-whites, perhaps even more so than Islam, but we never hear any worries of racism for it. Why do we worry for one religion and not another? What about Judaism? It’s perhaps the most mocked/satirized religion throughout history and the only one that actually shares its background with a race, but we never worry about racism towards it like Islam?