“Arch” they just need to read the newsletter before updating.
“Gentoo” because fuck you personally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch
Linux From Scratch (LFS) is a type of a Linux installation and the name of a book written by Gerard Beekmans, and as of May 2021, mainly maintained by Bruce Dubbs. The book gives readers instructions on how to build a Linux system from source. The book is available freely from the Linux From Scratch site.
LWN.net reviewed LFS in 2004:[19]
Linux From Scratch is a wonderful project. It should become a compulsory reading material for all Linux training courses, and something that every Linux enthusiast should complete at least once. This would also create another interesting side effect: people who tend to be quick in expressing dissatisfaction on the distributions’ mailing lists and forums would probably show a lot more respect for the developers. Installing a ready-made distribution is a trivial task. Building up a set of 4 CDs containing a stable, secure and reliable operating system, plus thousands of applications, is most definitely not.
This just reminds me of my first experience with Linux in the late 90’s. Yes they had installers that got the base system working, but then you had to compile so much.
I did this once. I got to a command line installation and I think I either borked installing a usable desktop environment, or I was just sick of it all and decided I wouln’t be getting working hibernation or Wi-Fi this way anyway and the slightly lower resources used wasn’t worth it.
I think I had tried Gentoo before that and must have decided I didn’t like myself for some reason.
Before upgrading, users are expected to visit the Arch Linux home page to check the latest news, or alternatively subscribe to the RSS feed or the arch-announce mailing list. When updates require out-of-the-ordinary user intervention (more than what can be handled simply by following the instructions given by pacman), an appropriate news post will be made.
@Natanox Seems like NixOS replaced Arch as both a local extremist cult and the most effective newbie repellent.
What’s funny to me here is that, as a long time Arch user, I have been considering switching to NixOS. One of the most terrifying thoughts to me is that after using the same Arch install for 2 years I will spend ages trying to recreate it if I ever have to. Oh, that and Nix letting you test packages seems like a cool feature.
I’ve been on arch around a year now and also considered the jump to NixOS. I was actually dual booting it with arch for awhile and I found pretty quickly that the shit documentation was a huge turn off for me. I ended up nuking the nix partition and reclaiming it for arch.
This is my biggest issue. I am utterly spoiled to the exquisiteness that is Arch’s Wiki…
I mean the Arch wiki mostly works on NixOS too. The problem with NixOS documentation is that there aren’t many examples for the Nix language itself.
What is the Nix language like?
If Haskell and json had a baby
Hmm, that sounds more like dhall
Terrible. Unless you like Haskell, DSLs, and the like.
I’ve found that the Arch wiki works for most distros if you know how to translate it. There have been multiple times I’ve searched how to do something or how to fix something in Linux and the only useful result is an arch forum or wiki. All I had to do is translate the steps for debian/ubuntu/opensuse/fedora/rpiOS, etc.
The process was usually “search this error” > “this part” isn’t working, search “this part error” > arch forum showing steps to fix. Search “where the fuck is this file in <distro>”. Get “it’s usually here, here, or over here”, then do arch steps.
Then there’s opensuse, and there’s fucking camelcase capitals in their packages (NetworkManager? Seriously?) so I have to Google “opensuse <command/application> package” like a fucking rube.
Yeah one nice thing about nixos is that their package search website is really good. You can also search for config options with examples.
Arch wiki is the documentation gold standard
That and the need to learn a bespoke, weird programming language that will only ever be useful for this one thing have really turned me off of that distro.
Definitely. Why not use something off the shelf! That by itself would make it much more approachable
The nice thing is that NixOS will keep your setup and all your tweaks if you ever need to reinstall. It’s designed to solve that exact problem.
One way of switching over would be to carry over your homedir and just starting with migrating packages and config as a first step.
I am about to switch away from arch that I installed 5 years ago. It’s a daunting thought isn’t it?
I was in the same boat two years ago.
What I did is that I’ve setup a VM with NixOS in it to play with, learn the language and tweak the configuration file.
The great thing about NixOS is that once I was feeling confident enough to switch I installed NixOS on bare metal, loaded the configuration file I prepared in the VM and I instantly had everything installed and running. (Except for the NVidia drivers, fuck nvidia)
Since then I’ve stayed in nixos and I’m not looking back.
This would likely be the plan. This is solid advice really for anyone swapping distros really.
If you have more time like me, you can just “fuck it we ball” and install NixOS and wipe your drive
Documentation? For Nix? Yeah right.
I mean isn’t it accepted that NixOS is a terrible pick for a beginner, especially a non-technical one? I feel like even the Nix community doesn’t recommend the distro to complete beginners.
I really wish everyone thought like that, but I still see people recommending Nix, Arch, Void… and some go the ideological route and start recommending systemd-less only like Artix or ranting against anything that uses Flatpak. Those discussions can get messy, and they always alienate the person who asked. Unfortunately those with ideological reasons are always the loudest and present in basically every “Beginner’s Help” group.
I wouldn’t recommend vanilla Arch only because of the installation process. CachyOS that simplifies it is an extremely good pick for a person who already knows what a computer is, but wants to try a proper OS.
Arch mostly got it’s reputation in the early days. Today some things are a lot easier to do on Arch than on other distros, especially because AUR exists. Also, it built one of the best wikis over all that time.
Weird way to spell EndeavorOS
EndeavorOS? Yay!
Weird way to spell EndeavorOS
With the missing ‘U’? I know, right? But it’s not weird; it’s just American, so it rewrites its history.
The devs of the OS spell it Endeavour. It’s one of those words that’s spelled slightly different in various parts of the English-speaking sphere. As it functions as a name here, I have no problem spelling it their way when referring to the OS.
For most people though yeah, Debian is rock solid, only went arch on my desktop for nvidia drivers (and HDR), archinstall really simplifies installing it.
Arch and Debian wikis are both amazing sources of information, highly recommend for any distro.
Of the last 20 or so people iv helped swap over to Linux in the last year. They have all ended up just going straight to either endeavour or cachy.
The Ubuntu family distro like mint or pop always have some kinda of weird hardware problem with something. Everytime with out fail. Seriously I love the Ubuntu descendants like pop and mint. When they work, they just fucking work and are rock solid. But their it just works scope is just too damn narrow compared to arch for the freaks I know.
It’s amazing how much weird ass hardware people use that with out something as large as the aur, you just aren’t finding a reasonable solution. Fixes exist but ones that a total idiot can just install are rare. And fedora isnt much better in that regard.
Fedora also just has… Problems ane a community that makes it hard to tell new users to Google solutions
That or the “app stores” confuse the new users or cause problems inside of two weeks. Im always baffled Everytime I get a call and someone has managed to break their computer via a GUI package manager or app store.
Cachy just has everything games want pre installed and even the most nontechie gamers iv known basically hit the ground running with it. I think part of that is because it works for the exact use case a gamer would want basically out of the box with as little fiddling as needed and arch is bleeding edge enough to actually run new games reliably enough people don’t fuck with shit and break it trying to make things work.
For the rest endeavour has had the best rate at actually keeping people from just going back to windows.
Seriously wild how good endeavours conversion rate is.
I wish. People recommend Arch to beginners all the time. And then wonder why there’s so many “Linux is too hard” comments everywhere
Arch isn’t necessarily hard. It just is unstable plus it encourages dated ways of doing things.
Those make it hard
It’s not hard if you’re into doing Linuxy stuff. A lot of new users are not, or find diving in too fast intimidating. Like it or not Arch is definitely in the deep end of the Linux pool.
I really love this image for this, that expression combo is perfection.
definetly! do you know what anime that is?
Chatlotte (2015)
I swear, I’ve only recommended it to one newbie, and they were an engineer! I had a reason!
Hilarious that this is the new norm, though. NixOS is so not typical at all. Arch is more normal at this point.
NixOS consist of a bunch of options that you define using the nix programming language. Since it’s a programming language, everything is well defined and organised into single place.
Technically, someone could build a GUI configuration editor with sane defaults and clearly organised pages of settings, which generates a configuration for you. This could immediately change NixOS from the most tedious to a relatively easy to use distro.
They already built a GUI editor, but a programmer made it so it is actually harder to use than the text file
Lmao which is it?
There’s a list of GUI editors here.
But I don’t know which one exactly they were talking about
Nixos conf editor, it shows less of the config on screen than a text editor
And windows users are well known for their mastery of esoteric programming languages. Such as… um… ah… batch files, which, well, some of them can write. If they’re not more than four or five lines.
But that counts, right?Linux users can’t regedit. Regedit uses some weird programming language only known to a few windows grand masters.
It basically represents values with 16 possible symbols, ranging from 0 to f. We call it sixteendecimal. Very advanced. But nobody knows what they mean yet.
This should give you linux users a pause the next time you belittle windows users for their lack of computer knowledge!
Batch files¹, powershell, visual basic if you use Office, Lisp if you used AutoCAD back when macros were written in Lisp… 🤷♂️
¹- And, frankly, I doubt setting up NixOS is particularly more complex than setting up an autoexec.bat boot menu back when some programs (well, games are programs) wanted extended memory and some others wanted expanded memory (couldn’t have both modes at the same time, of course), and you had to make sure the drivers loaded in the most optimal order (which could vary depending on the aforementioned memory expanders, and which drivers the specific game actually needed) to fit as many as possible of them and DOS in high memory leaving as much as possible of the 640KB of system RAM free for the program… and I’m not even getting into the whole IRQ thing for soundcards and whatnot… and we had to do it all without Internet, learning by trial and error, or word of mouth, or from magazines…
Spoken like someone who’s never used nix before lol.
Good luck even having a question to ask, much less finding where to ask it
I don’t think I’ve needed to ask anyone anything when dealing with computers (except when helping someone with a self caused issue, of course, in which case the question is usually “why did you do this?”) since I was a little kid figuring out how to use my 286… I find that usually you just need to read the fucking screen (an extremely rare talent, I’ve come to realise), and in harder cases a bit of googling or, if push comes to shove, RTFMing seems to do the trick… but OK, we’ll see, I’ve been wanting to try NixOS for a while once I have the time, and my computer is getting old… maybe this summer I’ll find some time, better this than updating to Windows 11 in any case. 🤷♂️
I’ve genuinely never seen a single person recommend NixOS to a new user, unless they already had advanced technical knowledge
Are you new around here?
You could just look at my profile to see that I’m not. I’m also not new to Linux communities in general. Doesn’t change that I’ve never seen someone recommend NixOS to a complete beginner. I have (rarely) seen Arch recommended, but those recommendations will generally be downvoted and have many replies disagreeing. Linux Mint is by far the distro I see most often recommended, followed by Fedora.
What I see recommended nowadays is indeed mint, various Ubuntu variations, arch (always, although a lot of the time in jest), Nix fairly regularly, and as for the classics: SuSE and Fedora, they’re rarely mentioned.
As an experienced Fedora User, I recommend mint to newbies. Fedora having to add RPMFusion and figure out how to properly install the correct Nvidia driver can be daunting for a new user who is used to downloading exes. I love fedora though, and if it were not for that one thing I would be recommending it.
As an former Fedora and Mint user, now NixOS user, I reccomend Fedora to newbies. rpmfusion ain’t that hard since you only copy and paste commands and I’ve never had any problems with drivers. It maybe daunting but after installing the drivers, you don’t have to do anything else after. Fedora also opens up other possibilities to the Linux rabbit hole like ricing and its semi-rolling release.
I generally want to avoid telling people to copy and paste commands they dont understand, especially things like one line installs. I understand what you mean, and while you and I know there is no risk to using RPMFusion, a windows user should never be underestimated in their ability to screw Something up. (See: Linus Sebastian installing Pop!_OS) and most new users do not want to interact with the terminal at all. I feel like if we want people to start using Linux as a daily driver, the option to never use the terminal should be available to them.
Fair enough, although it was Pop!_OS fault due to a bug in Linus’ installation. It’s been fixed now.
I have an old MacBook for 2012, can barely open terminal, installed Pop!_OS, and I love it!
Am I a terrible person?
Nah, you’re killing it.
I have MacBook pro from 2011 and it runs Plasma fine. It has 16GB of memory, though.
I’ve got an old Dell XPS system from 2010 with a Core i7 970 in it that runs Mint perfectly well.
Not at all. Pop OS was my Windows to Linux distro of choice, of which I stayed on for almost 3 years. It’s a great way to get familiar with Linux.
I only got out because I wanted to be closer to the edge, not because it was bad.
Yes, you are a terrible person. /s
I use Alpine, tbh I dont see why I should learn an entire programming language just for a distro
Alpine just feels like everything on my system is there for a reason (and somehow makes arch feel “bloated”) so I 100% understand wanting a full config file for everything on your system. But DAMN THE DOCS SUCK. Also NixOS locks you into systemd…
I keep seeing this sentiment, what’s wrong with systemd?
nothing.
It’s an ideological thing that says systemd bad because its not Unix enough usually.
Lmao gotcha. I won’t worry about it then. Currently distro shopping. 🙂
I have an old Laptop with a second gen i3 and 4gb of ram. Alpine runs very smoothly with Sway.
NixOS locks you into systemd…
Okay! Nix is out until it fixes that. What a fucking mess systemd is.
Why do you use Alpine?
Very old computer
Alpine actually isn’t more lightweight than something like Debian. You can use whatever you want of course.
I think Alpine is best used in a container.
Because whenever I use apt or a similar standard package manager there is always some issue. For example, I start up an Ubuntu VPS and try to run nginx just to find out that Ubuntu 24 only has 1.24
And to get a newer version you need to do a bunch of steps:
How are these sources.list incantations any different from editing a configuration.nix file?
I have this exact situation with my wife’s work laptop, which can’t upgrade to windows 11. The requirements are pretty simple, something that runs Chrome and Dropbox as well as Microsoft Office 2007.
I’m going with Mint Cinnamon for her (I use arch & kde btw) - was pleasantly surprised to see Dropbox now has Linux support actually, haven’t looked at it for years!
Almost everything she uses her computer for runs in Chrome.
Now? i am pretty sure I have had dropbox on my linux machine like 10 years back, definitely back when AntergOS was still a thing and even before I remember having it
I looked it up there was an issue with btrfs just after they started Linux version which was why I stopped using it. That was a long time ago you are right, seems to be resolved now.
Don’t use Office 2007 as it has major security vulnerabilities
If you don’t open external files there is no problem? We paid for it and it does the mail merge so that’s what we use. Been looking for Linux alternative with the same functionality and no luck so far, LibreOffice is almost but not quite good enough. Nobody else does mail merge from spreadsheet?
Also I’m guessing it will be more secure on wine
Wine doesn’t impact security what so ever
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There is also LTSC, which is much lighter than regular Windows 11, and does not have the ridiculous requirements.
Don’t tell my wife! I’ve been looking for an excuse to move her onto Linux for years. I’m the IT guy for our company and frankly if something goes wrong with Windows I’m stuck.
Her laptop “won’t work” with Windows after October, ok?
At least they aren’t trying to get Steam to work on Kali.
That’s surprisingly easy.
Imo a just works, deb based kde distro with nvidia drivers, flatpaks and no snaps is what we need to bring forth the year of the linux desktop.
And one that you can get pre-installed on devices you can purchase. The “just buy and be happy” aspect is important for a lot of people as well, not to mention the valuable customer support. People with dispensable income who wish for this are usually furthest away from hackerspace culture though, so a lot of Linux enthusiasts seemingly overlook it. Or, when it comes to far-left people around, want to overlook it.
If I remember correctly TuxedoOS checks all those boxes. And I think if you want “same but Gnome” that would be SlimbookOS. 🤔
Fedora KDE is not deb based, but dnf is better than apt anyway fight me
I don’t disagree but I still wanna fight, where do you wanna meet?
I dunno, we live in the age of ChatGPT. Between my generic but sufficient computer skills and ChatGPT’s hallucinatory ramblings, I’ve been smooth sailing on EndeavourOS for a few weeks now.
The EndeavourOS forums are also a really good help source if you wanna ditch the LLM, users there are pretty friendly and it’s probably where it sources most of it’s relevant info anyway.
Noted, thank you!
Does anyone really recommend Ubuntu these days? I think Mint has reigned supreme for years, at least for beginners.
I recommended Mint to my partner and she wasn’t too enthusiastic about it after trying, I have Ubuntu on one of my laptops where she has a guest account and she actually prefers it even after hours of use so her new laptop is getting 24.04. I did do the diligence of explaining that Ubuntu is to Canonical as Firefox is to Mozilla, and why some Linux heads aren’t a fan.
Since bookworm, I find little need to push them past Debian. It’s clean and runs all the things.
I barely see people recommend mint anymore. It like every other Ubuntu family distro keeps having too many issues and poor gaming support compared to the steamOS styled distros.
Everyone is going to bazzite or cachyOS as the new “noob” distros cause they just work and play steam games and have steam deck isos.
How does mint have “poor gaming support”?
How does mint have “poor gaming support”?
- The last time they tried it was ages ago, or they followed some old instructions.
- They’re trying to play a game that has serious anticheat aspirations and doesn’t run well on linux
- They want to play roblox.
It’s funny to see so many different echochambers at play. 🤭 No offense of course.
Mint is still by far the most popular distro, I even saw Goodwill selling computers with it now. Ubuntu is also widely used, apparently it’s really popular in India(?). Meanwhile in hackspaces NixOS and Arch are super popular. Personally I like OpenSuse, therefore hear a lot about that family of distros. We’re existing in a super diverse ecosystem.
It’s just annoying when people recommend stuff not because they think it’s the best pick for the person who’s asking, but because they like it best (I swear on my grave, I god damn saw people recommending NixOS for elders and Arch Linux for productivity environments that must be 100% stable). Therefore I made a meme about it.
Big nix fan here, I love being able to define my system from a couple configuration files and not scrounging around the file system for the right dot file
Definitely solves more problems than it creates! /s
