Okay, real talk, besides the “worship God alone” part and observing the Sabbath, which part of the Ten Commandments do you disagree with? I think they pretty much stand by themselves, right?
Do you think this is about people disagreeing with their contents? That seems like a strawman. People disagree with one specific religion’s doctrine being forced onto students.
But, since you asked, I could definitely do without these:
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shall not have strange gods before Me.
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day.
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife. (seems a bit male-focused)
I wouldn’t say so. If it said instead “the spouse of your neighbor” it wouldn’t consider the spouse a property of the other spouse. X of Y doesn’t mean X is the property of Y. “Of” is just not a precise word.
Yes, if it said something different I would understand something different. I don’t know how to day this without sounding like an ass, but that’s what reading comprehension is for.
Oh, I just meant to talk about the TC by themselves, I’m sorry if I came across as if I were arguing about something else sneakily. Trust me, I wasn’t. And I mean, you don’t disagree with the last one, you just think it should be expanded, which is a reasonable suggestion. That’s nice.
Okay real talk, you can’t just “besides” the parts which make all nonAbrahamic religions, nature worship and atheism anathema, especially when you’re forcing it upon children in school. And especially when those doing so have proven those are the only bits they follow and intend to enforce.
I can when talking to atheists, what else can I do? Evidently you disagree with the notion of a Creator, why would I ask about that? And of course many of those who claim to be this or that are just unrepentant, amoral cunts who only believe might makes right (if I can and I want to, I will, should doesn’t register). People lie. 🤷😞
All the others boil down to The Golden Rule. You don’t need ten, or seven. Jesus explained that, but it existed before religion and doesn’t require belief in a deity.
Of course they are, but what’s the purpose in asking atheists whether they agree on anything strictly related to God? They deny His existence, the conversation wouldn’t be fruitful. And of course these moral stances are objectively true (the West is postmodern and doesn’t believe in objectively true anything on average but perhaps you’re different and see this for what it is), and don’t require belief in God for them to be true… but believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
I don’t need to be threatened with eternal suffering in order to choose to be a good person. I’m simply not a piece of shit by default.
How does the threat of eternal suffering stop you from faltering? Why is that more effective than just trying to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do?
I don’t need an external force to choose to be a good person.
Because it is, because eternal suffering is gonna keep your lower self in control when your higher self already rationalised their way into condoning a lack of virtue. Expecting people to be wiser than not is just the silliest thing, don’t you know people? There are some who break from the matrix of materialism and hedonism but most never do, and their eyes get bigger and let go of virtue for a moment, and in those cases remembering God’s Judgment can save you.
Many times that’s all we are and the difference is being or not being afraid of it. Personally, more than Hell, I’m just too proud to be too evil, I couldn’t face God and hear how awful I had been knowing well I could’ve been better because of free will. Nuh uh, I’m not trying to go through all of that, lol.
believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous
Then why do so few Christians act virtuously? Why is it Christians are the ones most in favor of Trump and everything he’s doing? Why are people being shot in the streets, families torn apart, immigrants dying in cells?
If Christians are, on average, more virtuous, why are they disproportionately supporting unethical, amoral leadership?
Why is it when Tim Walz implemented free school lunches for children, it was the Christian right that opposed it? Why were childless atheists like me stronger supporters of it than Christians?
I don’t think they are and Christianity itself was fucked from the start, being the empire’s state religion that co-opted the image of the man they murdered and changed the core “morality=goodness=what God wants from you” into “believe this person is God and you’re saved! Faith without deeds is a valid thing!”. Remember, Jesus was just a Jew of his time. I don’t think they actually accepted the message of Jesus, I think they accepted whatever Paul and the church said and never read a word in the Bible (which has a lot of crap but at least they’d know what they should be for/against from the actual source). I mean, God says “do not kill” but the Crusades happened, so from the beginning Jesus’ message, the Law and the prophets were not taken seriously in some parts of the world, just as a cover-up for the actual values they have (might makes right and fuck you if you get on my way, something like that, right?).
There’s too many people who believe in God and the Day of Judgement, who not only proclaim their belief but call for everyone else to believe the same, and yet their lives are built on greed and ambition for me to believe that has anything but a deleterious effect on true morality.
Better to focus on doing right in the here and now, because this is the only life we have, the only opportunity we have, to give a positive definition to our humanity.
Religion provides cover and loopholes for evil to flourish. And if God does exist, They clearly enjoy cruelty towards the innocent.
But if you wish to continue being religious, go ahead (not at me but for yourself) as long as you don’t start treating people as things. Because that’s where all evil begins.
Then they don’t? You know people can talk a lot of shit about things they have no actual connection to, just because it’s socially acceptable or expected of them or because being a hypocrite is sometimes materially beneficial. Donald Trump is probably a “Christian”, right? By their fruits you will recognise them, though. If someone comes telling me they’re a pretty kettle I won’t take their words seriously, I’ll just look at their very human shape and understand this person is either crazy or lying…
I know a number of very good people who are Abrahamic-religious (some Christian, some Jewish, some Muslim) and in every case their goodness is in spite of or unrelated to their religion. If you have to believe in eternal torment/bliss and the watchful eye of a Creator in order to treat others with kindness, you’re on shaky ground. It should be part of your whole being. My Wiccan and atheist friends are good in equal measure, and they have the additional grace to not go around trying to get others to follow their belief, only their example of humankindness.
Our goodness is hard coded actually, it’s the default, you actually have to really spin the rationalisation wheel and be nothing but a lost hedonist to cancel it out. But, again, it’s more about not disappointing God and yourself, since you were made good, than it is fearing Hell, although the latter works well for many people because most are sheep. But the important thing, really, is to fear God’s judgment, not because Hell sucks but because, if God in all his mercy says you sucked as a human being, He’s right, objectively so.
Remember how much more fun Christmas was when you believed in Santa? You should just start believing in Santa again and enhance your Christmas experience!
It’s easier said than done. Once you realize that Santa was just a manipulative lie to make children behave, you can’t force yourself to forget all that and just go back to the sense of wonder you had as a kid.
I never did but I understand what you’re saying. In this case, I think it’s more like “having been told many lies about Santa, I am now disappointed and not trusting anything related to this Santa character”. Which is an understandable reaction but not a good one, IMO.
All the evidence against someone meant to be a physical entity who can forge at times expensive toys and deliver them around the world in a single night? God is not here, he’s not contained by the universe, he’s outside of it by necessity… but Santa is supposed to be here, and neither reality nor reason support his existence. 🤷
The first one can be derived from the “thou shalt not lust over your neighbours’ wife”, it’s in the same vein, and likewise with not owning humans and “thou shalt not kill”… but I didn’t ask what wasn’t included in the TC, but what you disagree with in it. Your additions are very good though!
That’s one hell of a stretch, pardon the phrasing. Gravin images is another great example, not only do many people ignore this don’t own people etc would be a better use of space.
It kind of is in a way, ngl, but if we understand death as the greatest of harms and lower levels are still on the same frequency, just not on the same intensity, then something as restrictive as slavery (death being the more restrictive) should also be avoided, right? And what’s Gavin images?
Oh yes, I mean just as Moses was coming down with the TC tablets his people were already worshipping idols, lol. And the first commandment is “worship God alone”, basically. 😔
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shall not have strange gods before Me.
I’m atheist, so this does not apply.
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Again.
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day.
And again.
Honor thy father and mother.
Nice, but hardly something we should legislate.
Thou shall not kill.
Duh.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Again, not something we should legislate.
Thou shall not steal.
Has merit.
Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
If extrapolate this to mean not to lie in general, then it’s good practice for life.
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s goods.
We’ve already covered stealing, so I imagine these are about jealously. Hardly the responsibility of the state to legislate.
So, at best I agree with 25% of the Ten Commandments, hardly a “universal code” of morality. Missing rape and slavery, pretty big omissions of you ask me.
Personally, I don’t think it’s about jealousy but about greed overall, and how that might convince you to forcefully take things, lives and freedom. And whether there’s punishment by society or not (legislation), you believe these stances are right, disagreeing only with the ones that concern faith and rite (the Sabbath). That’s nice.
Maybe instead of arguing with atheists who aren’t doing anything wrong, you should focus on the “Christian” politicians promoting the 10 commandments while actively breaking them.
They’re too far gone, they left their values behind if they ever had any to be part of the empire’s power structure. At least atheists online stand by what they believe in, they’re more intellectually honest (and overall as well).
If they remove the non-secular rules, maybe we can talk. They won’t, because it’s not about “These are good rules,” it’s about “Remember, Christians own this place.”
I’m NGL, I’ve been a bad lemming: I just wanted to talk about the TC… I know, especially now in Burgerland, Christian Fascism is rising, I didn’t mean to make it seem like I support that Godless nonsense.
You literally answer your own questions with your denigrating comments.
But to answer you, here are a few bullet points:
My favorite take is Frederick Douglass’s characterization about “American Christianity”. It is all about hypocrisy and it mostly stems from the white south and their justification for slavery.
There are plenty of solid, “good” christian based practices, but there are also way too many bad faith ones.
USA has a Constitutional amendment about this, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”
by posting the TC in schools, this is ridiculously close to just that.
You want this argument to be about whether or not people believe in God or the TC, but it’s really about separation of church and state.
What did Christ say when asked which was the greatest commandment? Yeah, he didn’t even respond with any of the original ten.
You know what should be posted in the classroom? The “All I really need to know I learned in kindergarten.” poster. That is a better summation of Christ’s response than the TC.
The TC in schools is a dog whistle issue meant to make dumbass christians, like yourself, argue “Whats so wrong about the TC?”, instead of focusing on real issues.
I grew up in a very christian, faith based household. The church we belonged to was very kind, supportive of its members, and urged commitment and sacrifice to better the community. I would consider it a strong contender for what Christ intended. But even with that framework growing up, I realized this, and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see it: the complete and utter bullshit the bible is. It is nothing more than a bunch of stories curated to control the moronic sheep that fear death. It was supported by the ruling classes because it helped support their claims and created this fantasy for the proletariat to feel better about and accept their plight.
Religious choice should be a personal, private relationship each person has with God. Not a tool used to force all of society to bow to your own beliefs.
I agree with pretty much all of your points, especially the ones regarding American politics. But the Bible is a collection of books, none of them claiming to be the actual word of God but with authors (who declare themselves from the get go, usually, like in Ecclesiastes)… I think the only thing given divine origin is actually the TC? There’s a lot of wisdom therein, and also a lot of nonsense made my men in power to keep their power and excuse their excesses, that’s obvious. And in both the OG books and the NT, Paulian letters being the main example of NT nonsense (faith without works? That’s just hypocrisy, lol). Only someone who’s not read the Bible would say it’s the word of God, anyone who has would say it’s the word of nameless authors, and then David, Solomon, there’s the apostles in there too and also Paul.
And a society should still have a baseline ideology with a moral framework in it which should be inculcated in everyone since they’re young, else you have amoral beasts, hedonists, roaming around and no social cohesion besides meaningless things that can be used against you like race, for example. Religion in America, and Christianity in many places, is completely disconnected from morality, when the religion of Moses is, evidently, a religion of moral duty since the one thing God truly communicated was that! You can just confess, or trust the “grace” that comes from believing a man is a deity, or give money to your local megachurch pastor and you’re good! Nevermind God and his judgement, we can trick him! Lol. If you’re left with a nasty aftertaste from being and seeing what “religious” means in America, I understand, but know that, just like your for-profit prisons, police/school shootings and ICE, they are (at least to the degree they’ve been taken to) pretty much just American issues…
There’s no reason we can’t have a moral baseline based on philosophy, community and intrinsic fairness. What we need is secular education without an arbitrary morality being preached based on some sort of sky fairy.
That’s been tried in the West pretty much since the days of Nietzsche without any moral development. I mean, Western imperialism is as naked as it could ever be today. 🤷 But maybe, sure, maybe.
No worse that the faux morality that comes from religion. And generally a lot better as it can be questioned, discussed and improved. There are plenty of Western countries where religious dogma is no longer connected to governance. It’s really mostly just the U.S. that has regressed.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
1-4 are obviously worthless for non-Christians. 5 sounds good on paper, but there are a whole lot of parents that do a lot of harm to their children, so I don’t think it’s a great blanket rule
6-10 are solid, although I’d argue 10 is a bit redundant. The main issue with coveting is it can lead to 6-9. I’ll give it though since I vetoed 5
5/10 on the 10 commandments. That’s 50%, which is a failing grade
All that being said, I don’t actually have anything against it as a concept, same as I have nothing against Mormons not drinking alcohol, or Muslims not eating pork. In all cases though, I have a problem with the government promoting the idea using tax payer funds
This seems like the only genuine reply to the question tbh. Most others comment something like “Well so many Christians do X or Y”, but that’s not the commandments’ fault.
I think we should all strive to live by 5-10. Except of course if your parents are horrible, then that one shouldn’t apply. But then 6, 8, 9 are all basically laws in most places already
It’s not about anyone agrees it but with the commandments it’s about separation of church and state, will you agree if they post the Delphic Maxims or the Hindi yamas instead?
It’s the same, people attending the schools might not know what the ten commandments say or maybe they don’t agree with them, so no one should force one set of commandments over others.
Wow. You’re like a Jehovah’s witness, but online! Let me take a crack at this one.
Your ten commandments tell you: “Thou shall not kill”, but not: “Thou shall not murder”. Leaving you Christian weirdos free reign to murder people in random wars in a way that seems totally justified to you mentally.
You ten commandments tell you to not “take the Lord’s name in vain”, but I see Christians everyday advocating for Jesus deporting and killing and locking up “the least of these” for no other reason than the color of their skin. Read Matthew 25:40-45 to hear about what Jesus actually wants us to do to help the poor and unfortunate around us!
Your antiquated religion makes not sense, and forcing it down other people throats just makes others more bitter and frustrated to have to hang out in the same general area as you. Either stfu or adapt to the world where Christians preach about the ten commandments, but refuse to follow any of them.
Your ten commandments tell you: “Thou shall not kill”, but not: “Thou shall not murder”
This one feels a bit unfair because the commandments would have been written in Hebrew, so the semantic difference is lost in translation
Your complaints about how Christians act is valid, although I would say they do that in spite of the 10 commandments. Turns out a lot of them are just shitty people
And before someone thinks I’m proselytizing, I made a separate comment giving the 10 commandments a failing grade as a source of ethics
“Real talk”? This is seagulling and you know it. The posting of the commandments carries over the baggage of region in general, and Christianity in particular.
Not to mention they are in direct opposition of some of the rules of conduct of the university and civilized society (freedom of religion).
I didn’t and I just learned the term. Again, I just wanted to discuss the TC in a vacuum, I know people are hypocrites and many Christians are the biggest ones, DW.
To try to discuss the 10 commandments without the rest of the Bible and history of Christianity is like talking about Jeffrey Dahmer without talking about the killings and cannibalism.
Specially when you start by dropping 20% because they are just absurd.
They’re not absurd, I’m just on l/atheism, what would be the point? And no, I don’t see that. The Bible is a collection of books with many many authors and much of it is pure garbage, it’s by definition and self admission not “the word of God”. Christianity is a state religion with Paulian nonsense that separates morals and belief, or belief and action, and that’s by now a core Western take. The Romans edited and imposed the Bible kinda like how Americans could edit and impose some “Nu Islam” in Palestine, lol. Crusaders invaded the lands of Jesus and the prophets like Rome did before but this time they said “God wills it” the same way America has had many incursions in the Middle East to “save us from the terrorists, and also God wills it”, but none of these people believe in the laws of God, they worship Khorne in reality. So, no, Christianity doesn’t mean that Mosaic law is nonsense, much of the sadness in the world comes from not following it and the stances that could be derived from them. 🤷
You already acknowledge that commandments 1-4 are things with which non-Christians in general strongly disagree.
5 - What if your father was Josef Mengele? The silence of his son is what allowed him to successfully hide in South America. Was that a good thing? Did he deserve any honor?
6 is written by the state of Texas as “Thou shall not kill.” Is killing in self defense wrong? If someone broke into your house with assault rifles and the intention of killing your children, would it be wrong to shoot at them to stop them? If a fighter jet was coming to bomb your city with a nuke, but you were able to intercept it with a missile, killing the pilot in the process, would that be wrong?
7 - In the context of the Bible, “adultery” can mean not only cheating, but also any sex outside of marriage. Tons of people do not see anything wrong with consensual sex outside of marriage.
8 - What is considered stealing? Is copying that floppy stealing? If a starving homeless orphan steals a loaf of bread from a billionaire to survive another day, is that wrong? A state may define theft however it wants. Personally, I consider the mere existence of private property as theft.
9 - If it was WW2 and Nazi officials came to your house asking if you had seen any Jews, would it be morally wrong to lie to them if you knew about some hiding in your attic?
10 - Is it wrong for workers to desire the means of production?
Every single one of the 10 commandments throws away the nuance of defining morality through critical thinking. As such, I would argue that it is incredibly immoral to follow any one of them.
Any non theist will not make sense of the first few Commandments, of course. And I don’t think you understand what a “moral baseline” is, you can’t deny filial love and responsibility because sometimes you end up with Josef Mengele as a dad, lol, you just understand that these are ideals to keep in mind that can be used for every occasion except minor cases. It’s wrong to go around killing people, but what about self defense? It’s wrong to be dishonest, but what if someone comes into your house and asks where your kids are cause they’re gonna kidnap them? I can do this too, see, but it doesn’t deny nor take away any value from the moral baseline.
The problem arises when you have no North, everything is arguable and an opinion, and one’s sense is equal to another senselessness because there’s history and herstory or whatever other silly ways of saying “reality (moral reality included) is a matter of perspective, nothing is fundamentally true”. Then people just get lost.
Nobody is lost. People lead lives that make sense to them. It’s not your job or any government’s job to impose your beliefs onto others. Because we have different philosophies and beliefs, separation of church and state is a thing.
Some people follow the Nobel Eightfold Path. Some follow the Ten Precepts of Taoism. Some follow the Seven Tenants of the Satanic Temple. Some follow the 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh. No matter how strongly you feel about your beliefs, nothing makes them any more special than the beliefs of other people. They feel just as strongly about theirs. People having different norths as you call it isn’t a bad thing. That’s called diversity. There’s only a problem when people are bigots that don’t accept others for who they are and feel the need to “fix” them. Whether it’s militant Christianity or militant atheism, we don’t need that. Keep it to yourself. Countless societies have flourished without your 10 commandments.
It’s not a feeling, I got to monotheism through textual analysis and thought. Things simply are more consistent with a framework that accepts a sole mind behind it all, a Creator. I admit I could be mistaken but this is something that other people with beliefs and I could discuss, and in earnest and good faith see which is more internally consistent and fitting reality than the others, right? They can be ranked from more sensible and fitting to less, right? Because no, not everything is “equally as valid”, that’s some Western postmodernist nonsense that ends up with people being confused, intellectually lazy and panicky fence sitters. Tolerance doesn’t mean “your nonsense is equal to my sense”, it means “I won’t kill you for being a commie/brown”, for instance (again, neither Christianity [because the message of Jesus is buried under nonsense that people actually believe in] nor Enlightenment values helped that but whatever). My book says that “to you your system and to me mine”, but I still believe mine is better, ofc, my sense is not equal to nonsense or absence.
Okay, real talk, besides the “worship God alone” part and observing the Sabbath, which part of the Ten Commandments do you disagree with? I think they pretty much stand by themselves, right?
Do you think this is about people disagreeing with their contents? That seems like a strawman. People disagree with one specific religion’s doctrine being forced onto students.
But, since you asked, I could definitely do without these:
Not only male focused, but also considers the wife a property of the husband.
I wouldn’t say so. If it said instead “the spouse of your neighbor” it wouldn’t consider the spouse a property of the other spouse. X of Y doesn’t mean X is the property of Y. “Of” is just not a precise word.
Yes, if it said something different I would understand something different. I don’t know how to day this without sounding like an ass, but that’s what reading comprehension is for.
Oh, I just meant to talk about the TC by themselves, I’m sorry if I came across as if I were arguing about something else sneakily. Trust me, I wasn’t. And I mean, you don’t disagree with the last one, you just think it should be expanded, which is a reasonable suggestion. That’s nice.
Okay real talk, you can’t just “besides” the parts which make all nonAbrahamic religions, nature worship and atheism anathema, especially when you’re forcing it upon children in school. And especially when those doing so have proven those are the only bits they follow and intend to enforce.
I can when talking to atheists, what else can I do? Evidently you disagree with the notion of a Creator, why would I ask about that? And of course many of those who claim to be this or that are just unrepentant, amoral cunts who only believe might makes right (if I can and I want to, I will, should doesn’t register). People lie. 🤷😞
Are they The Ten Commandments or not?
All the others boil down to The Golden Rule. You don’t need ten, or seven. Jesus explained that, but it existed before religion and doesn’t require belief in a deity.
Of course they are, but what’s the purpose in asking atheists whether they agree on anything strictly related to God? They deny His existence, the conversation wouldn’t be fruitful. And of course these moral stances are objectively true (the West is postmodern and doesn’t believe in objectively true anything on average but perhaps you’re different and see this for what it is), and don’t require belief in God for them to be true… but believing in God and the Day of Judgement, having it in your mind 24/7, will help you choose virtue when it doesn’t feel convenient and your whims and greed scream against being righteous.
I don’t need to be threatened with eternal suffering in order to choose to be a good person. I’m simply not a piece of shit by default.
You don’t have to be a piece of shit, just a person, to falter sometimes.
How does the threat of eternal suffering stop you from faltering? Why is that more effective than just trying to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do?
I don’t need an external force to choose to be a good person.
Because it is, because eternal suffering is gonna keep your lower self in control when your higher self already rationalised their way into condoning a lack of virtue. Expecting people to be wiser than not is just the silliest thing, don’t you know people? There are some who break from the matrix of materialism and hedonism but most never do, and their eyes get bigger and let go of virtue for a moment, and in those cases remembering God’s Judgment can save you.
If you need the notion of an invisible sky judge/peeping Tom, you’re not a virtuous person, you’re a trembling child afraid of the strap.
Many times that’s all we are and the difference is being or not being afraid of it. Personally, more than Hell, I’m just too proud to be too evil, I couldn’t face God and hear how awful I had been knowing well I could’ve been better because of free will. Nuh uh, I’m not trying to go through all of that, lol.
Um, wat
Then why do so few Christians act virtuously? Why is it Christians are the ones most in favor of Trump and everything he’s doing? Why are people being shot in the streets, families torn apart, immigrants dying in cells?
If Christians are, on average, more virtuous, why are they disproportionately supporting unethical, amoral leadership?
Why is it when Tim Walz implemented free school lunches for children, it was the Christian right that opposed it? Why were childless atheists like me stronger supporters of it than Christians?
I don’t think they are and Christianity itself was fucked from the start, being the empire’s state religion that co-opted the image of the man they murdered and changed the core “morality=goodness=what God wants from you” into “believe this person is God and you’re saved! Faith without deeds is a valid thing!”. Remember, Jesus was just a Jew of his time. I don’t think they actually accepted the message of Jesus, I think they accepted whatever Paul and the church said and never read a word in the Bible (which has a lot of crap but at least they’d know what they should be for/against from the actual source). I mean, God says “do not kill” but the Crusades happened, so from the beginning Jesus’ message, the Law and the prophets were not taken seriously in some parts of the world, just as a cover-up for the actual values they have (might makes right and fuck you if you get on my way, something like that, right?).
There’s too many people who believe in God and the Day of Judgement, who not only proclaim their belief but call for everyone else to believe the same, and yet their lives are built on greed and ambition for me to believe that has anything but a deleterious effect on true morality.
Better to focus on doing right in the here and now, because this is the only life we have, the only opportunity we have, to give a positive definition to our humanity.
Religion provides cover and loopholes for evil to flourish. And if God does exist, They clearly enjoy cruelty towards the innocent.
But if you wish to continue being religious, go ahead (not at me but for yourself) as long as you don’t start treating people as things. Because that’s where all evil begins.
Then they don’t? You know people can talk a lot of shit about things they have no actual connection to, just because it’s socially acceptable or expected of them or because being a hypocrite is sometimes materially beneficial. Donald Trump is probably a “Christian”, right? By their fruits you will recognise them, though. If someone comes telling me they’re a pretty kettle I won’t take their words seriously, I’ll just look at their very human shape and understand this person is either crazy or lying…
I know a number of very good people who are Abrahamic-religious (some Christian, some Jewish, some Muslim) and in every case their goodness is in spite of or unrelated to their religion. If you have to believe in eternal torment/bliss and the watchful eye of a Creator in order to treat others with kindness, you’re on shaky ground. It should be part of your whole being. My Wiccan and atheist friends are good in equal measure, and they have the additional grace to not go around trying to get others to follow their belief, only their example of humankindness.
Our goodness is hard coded actually, it’s the default, you actually have to really spin the rationalisation wheel and be nothing but a lost hedonist to cancel it out. But, again, it’s more about not disappointing God and yourself, since you were made good, than it is fearing Hell, although the latter works well for many people because most are sheep. But the important thing, really, is to fear God’s judgment, not because Hell sucks but because, if God in all his mercy says you sucked as a human being, He’s right, objectively so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
If Christians are morally superior, why does it take fascism to enforce their beliefs?
Remember how much more fun Christmas was when you believed in Santa? You should just start believing in Santa again and enhance your Christmas experience!
It’s easier said than done. Once you realize that Santa was just a manipulative lie to make children behave, you can’t force yourself to forget all that and just go back to the sense of wonder you had as a kid.
I never did but I understand what you’re saying. In this case, I think it’s more like “having been told many lies about Santa, I am now disappointed and not trusting anything related to this Santa character”. Which is an understandable reaction but not a good one, IMO.
You never believed in Santa Claus?
What’s stopping you from believing in him now?
All the evidence against someone meant to be a physical entity who can forge at times expensive toys and deliver them around the world in a single night? God is not here, he’s not contained by the universe, he’s outside of it by necessity… but Santa is supposed to be here, and neither reality nor reason support his existence. 🤷
Tho shall not rape… Not in there. Tho shall not own humans, not in there… Etc…
The first one can be derived from the “thou shalt not lust over your neighbours’ wife”, it’s in the same vein, and likewise with not owning humans and “thou shalt not kill”… but I didn’t ask what wasn’t included in the TC, but what you disagree with in it. Your additions are very good though!
That’s one hell of a stretch, pardon the phrasing. Gravin images is another great example, not only do many people ignore this don’t own people etc would be a better use of space.
It kind of is in a way, ngl, but if we understand death as the greatest of harms and lower levels are still on the same frequency, just not on the same intensity, then something as restrictive as slavery (death being the more restrictive) should also be avoided, right? And what’s Gavin images?
Gravin… Damn gboard
Oh yes, I mean just as Moses was coming down with the TC tablets his people were already worshipping idols, lol. And the first commandment is “worship God alone”, basically. 😔
My man, slavery is condoned in the Bible.
I’m atheist, so this does not apply.
Again.
And again.
Nice, but hardly something we should legislate.
Duh.
Again, not something we should legislate.
Has merit.
If extrapolate this to mean not to lie in general, then it’s good practice for life.
We’ve already covered stealing, so I imagine these are about jealously. Hardly the responsibility of the state to legislate.
So, at best I agree with 25% of the Ten Commandments, hardly a “universal code” of morality. Missing rape and slavery, pretty big omissions of you ask me.
Personally, I don’t think it’s about jealousy but about greed overall, and how that might convince you to forcefully take things, lives and freedom. And whether there’s punishment by society or not (legislation), you believe these stances are right, disagreeing only with the ones that concern faith and rite (the Sabbath). That’s nice.
Maybe instead of arguing with atheists who aren’t doing anything wrong, you should focus on the “Christian” politicians promoting the 10 commandments while actively breaking them.
They’re too far gone, they left their values behind if they ever had any to be part of the empire’s power structure. At least atheists online stand by what they believe in, they’re more intellectually honest (and overall as well).
If they remove the non-secular rules, maybe we can talk. They won’t, because it’s not about “These are good rules,” it’s about “Remember, Christians own this place.”
I’m NGL, I’ve been a bad lemming: I just wanted to talk about the TC… I know, especially now in Burgerland, Christian Fascism is rising, I didn’t mean to make it seem like I support that Godless nonsense.
You literally answer your own questions with your denigrating comments.
But to answer you, here are a few bullet points:
My favorite take is Frederick Douglass’s characterization about “American Christianity”. It is all about hypocrisy and it mostly stems from the white south and their justification for slavery.
There are plenty of solid, “good” christian based practices, but there are also way too many bad faith ones.
USA has a Constitutional amendment about this, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” by posting the TC in schools, this is ridiculously close to just that.
You want this argument to be about whether or not people believe in God or the TC, but it’s really about separation of church and state.
What did Christ say when asked which was the greatest commandment? Yeah, he didn’t even respond with any of the original ten.
You know what should be posted in the classroom? The “All I really need to know I learned in kindergarten.” poster. That is a better summation of Christ’s response than the TC.
The TC in schools is a dog whistle issue meant to make dumbass christians, like yourself, argue “Whats so wrong about the TC?”, instead of focusing on real issues.
I grew up in a very christian, faith based household. The church we belonged to was very kind, supportive of its members, and urged commitment and sacrifice to better the community. I would consider it a strong contender for what Christ intended. But even with that framework growing up, I realized this, and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see it: the complete and utter bullshit the bible is. It is nothing more than a bunch of stories curated to control the moronic sheep that fear death. It was supported by the ruling classes because it helped support their claims and created this fantasy for the proletariat to feel better about and accept their plight.
Religious choice should be a personal, private relationship each person has with God. Not a tool used to force all of society to bow to your own beliefs.
I agree with pretty much all of your points, especially the ones regarding American politics. But the Bible is a collection of books, none of them claiming to be the actual word of God but with authors (who declare themselves from the get go, usually, like in Ecclesiastes)… I think the only thing given divine origin is actually the TC? There’s a lot of wisdom therein, and also a lot of nonsense made my men in power to keep their power and excuse their excesses, that’s obvious. And in both the OG books and the NT, Paulian letters being the main example of NT nonsense (faith without works? That’s just hypocrisy, lol). Only someone who’s not read the Bible would say it’s the word of God, anyone who has would say it’s the word of nameless authors, and then David, Solomon, there’s the apostles in there too and also Paul.
And a society should still have a baseline ideology with a moral framework in it which should be inculcated in everyone since they’re young, else you have amoral beasts, hedonists, roaming around and no social cohesion besides meaningless things that can be used against you like race, for example. Religion in America, and Christianity in many places, is completely disconnected from morality, when the religion of Moses is, evidently, a religion of moral duty since the one thing God truly communicated was that! You can just confess, or trust the “grace” that comes from believing a man is a deity, or give money to your local megachurch pastor and you’re good! Nevermind God and his judgement, we can trick him! Lol. If you’re left with a nasty aftertaste from being and seeing what “religious” means in America, I understand, but know that, just like your for-profit prisons, police/school shootings and ICE, they are (at least to the degree they’ve been taken to) pretty much just American issues…
There’s no reason we can’t have a moral baseline based on philosophy, community and intrinsic fairness. What we need is secular education without an arbitrary morality being preached based on some sort of sky fairy.
That’s been tried in the West pretty much since the days of Nietzsche without any moral development. I mean, Western imperialism is as naked as it could ever be today. 🤷 But maybe, sure, maybe.
No worse that the faux morality that comes from religion. And generally a lot better as it can be questioned, discussed and improved. There are plenty of Western countries where religious dogma is no longer connected to governance. It’s really mostly just the U.S. that has regressed.
Here are the 10 commandments:
1-4 are obviously worthless for non-Christians. 5 sounds good on paper, but there are a whole lot of parents that do a lot of harm to their children, so I don’t think it’s a great blanket rule
6-10 are solid, although I’d argue 10 is a bit redundant. The main issue with coveting is it can lead to 6-9. I’ll give it though since I vetoed 5
5/10 on the 10 commandments. That’s 50%, which is a failing grade
All that being said, I don’t actually have anything against it as a concept, same as I have nothing against Mormons not drinking alcohol, or Muslims not eating pork. In all cases though, I have a problem with the government promoting the idea using tax payer funds
This seems like the only genuine reply to the question tbh. Most others comment something like “Well so many Christians do X or Y”, but that’s not the commandments’ fault.
I think we should all strive to live by 5-10. Except of course if your parents are horrible, then that one shouldn’t apply. But then 6, 8, 9 are all basically laws in most places already
Fair enough and fair reply. Thank you! 👍🙏
Thoughts on the state posting Surat Al-Isra verses 22-39 from the Quran in every classroom?
I think the Qur’an should be made a mandatory reading everywhere. 🤷
It’s not about anyone agrees it but with the commandments it’s about separation of church and state, will you agree if they post the Delphic Maxims or the Hindi yamas instead?
It all depends on what they say. At some point it’s just cultural education, I guess.
It’s the same, people attending the schools might not know what the ten commandments say or maybe they don’t agree with them, so no one should force one set of commandments over others.
Wow. You’re like a Jehovah’s witness, but online! Let me take a crack at this one.
Your ten commandments tell you: “Thou shall not kill”, but not: “Thou shall not murder”. Leaving you Christian weirdos free reign to murder people in random wars in a way that seems totally justified to you mentally.
You ten commandments tell you to not “take the Lord’s name in vain”, but I see Christians everyday advocating for Jesus deporting and killing and locking up “the least of these” for no other reason than the color of their skin. Read Matthew 25:40-45 to hear about what Jesus actually wants us to do to help the poor and unfortunate around us!
Your antiquated religion makes not sense, and forcing it down other people throats just makes others more bitter and frustrated to have to hang out in the same general area as you. Either stfu or adapt to the world where Christians preach about the ten commandments, but refuse to follow any of them.
This one feels a bit unfair because the commandments would have been written in Hebrew, so the semantic difference is lost in translation
Your complaints about how Christians act is valid, although I would say they do that in spite of the 10 commandments. Turns out a lot of them are just shitty people
And before someone thinks I’m proselytizing, I made a separate comment giving the 10 commandments a failing grade as a source of ethics
“Real talk”? This is seagulling and you know it. The posting of the commandments carries over the baggage of region in general, and Christianity in particular.
Not to mention they are in direct opposition of some of the rules of conduct of the university and civilized society (freedom of religion).
I didn’t and I just learned the term. Again, I just wanted to discuss the TC in a vacuum, I know people are hypocrites and many Christians are the biggest ones, DW.
To try to discuss the 10 commandments without the rest of the Bible and history of Christianity is like talking about Jeffrey Dahmer without talking about the killings and cannibalism.
Specially when you start by dropping 20% because they are just absurd.
They’re not absurd, I’m just on l/atheism, what would be the point? And no, I don’t see that. The Bible is a collection of books with many many authors and much of it is pure garbage, it’s by definition and self admission not “the word of God”. Christianity is a state religion with Paulian nonsense that separates morals and belief, or belief and action, and that’s by now a core Western take. The Romans edited and imposed the Bible kinda like how Americans could edit and impose some “Nu Islam” in Palestine, lol. Crusaders invaded the lands of Jesus and the prophets like Rome did before but this time they said “God wills it” the same way America has had many incursions in the Middle East to “save us from the terrorists, and also God wills it”, but none of these people believe in the laws of God, they worship Khorne in reality. So, no, Christianity doesn’t mean that Mosaic law is nonsense, much of the sadness in the world comes from not following it and the stances that could be derived from them. 🤷
Was this comment made in good faith?
Of course it was, but it was also disconnected from the larger context of OP. 🤷
/r/username-checks-out
Gotta do my rounds. 🤣
All of it. The entire thing is complete garbage.
You already acknowledge that commandments 1-4 are things with which non-Christians in general strongly disagree.
5 - What if your father was Josef Mengele? The silence of his son is what allowed him to successfully hide in South America. Was that a good thing? Did he deserve any honor?
6 is written by the state of Texas as “Thou shall not kill.” Is killing in self defense wrong? If someone broke into your house with assault rifles and the intention of killing your children, would it be wrong to shoot at them to stop them? If a fighter jet was coming to bomb your city with a nuke, but you were able to intercept it with a missile, killing the pilot in the process, would that be wrong?
7 - In the context of the Bible, “adultery” can mean not only cheating, but also any sex outside of marriage. Tons of people do not see anything wrong with consensual sex outside of marriage.
8 - What is considered stealing? Is copying that floppy stealing? If a starving homeless orphan steals a loaf of bread from a billionaire to survive another day, is that wrong? A state may define theft however it wants. Personally, I consider the mere existence of private property as theft.
9 - If it was WW2 and Nazi officials came to your house asking if you had seen any Jews, would it be morally wrong to lie to them if you knew about some hiding in your attic?
10 - Is it wrong for workers to desire the means of production?
Every single one of the 10 commandments throws away the nuance of defining morality through critical thinking. As such, I would argue that it is incredibly immoral to follow any one of them.
Any non theist will not make sense of the first few Commandments, of course. And I don’t think you understand what a “moral baseline” is, you can’t deny filial love and responsibility because sometimes you end up with Josef Mengele as a dad, lol, you just understand that these are ideals to keep in mind that can be used for every occasion except minor cases. It’s wrong to go around killing people, but what about self defense? It’s wrong to be dishonest, but what if someone comes into your house and asks where your kids are cause they’re gonna kidnap them? I can do this too, see, but it doesn’t deny nor take away any value from the moral baseline.
The problem arises when you have no North, everything is arguable and an opinion, and one’s sense is equal to another senselessness because there’s history and herstory or whatever other silly ways of saying “reality (moral reality included) is a matter of perspective, nothing is fundamentally true”. Then people just get lost.
Nobody is lost. People lead lives that make sense to them. It’s not your job or any government’s job to impose your beliefs onto others. Because we have different philosophies and beliefs, separation of church and state is a thing.
Some people follow the Nobel Eightfold Path. Some follow the Ten Precepts of Taoism. Some follow the Seven Tenants of the Satanic Temple. Some follow the 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh. No matter how strongly you feel about your beliefs, nothing makes them any more special than the beliefs of other people. They feel just as strongly about theirs. People having different norths as you call it isn’t a bad thing. That’s called diversity. There’s only a problem when people are bigots that don’t accept others for who they are and feel the need to “fix” them. Whether it’s militant Christianity or militant atheism, we don’t need that. Keep it to yourself. Countless societies have flourished without your 10 commandments.
It’s not a feeling, I got to monotheism through textual analysis and thought. Things simply are more consistent with a framework that accepts a sole mind behind it all, a Creator. I admit I could be mistaken but this is something that other people with beliefs and I could discuss, and in earnest and good faith see which is more internally consistent and fitting reality than the others, right? They can be ranked from more sensible and fitting to less, right? Because no, not everything is “equally as valid”, that’s some Western postmodernist nonsense that ends up with people being confused, intellectually lazy and panicky fence sitters. Tolerance doesn’t mean “your nonsense is equal to my sense”, it means “I won’t kill you for being a commie/brown”, for instance (again, neither Christianity [because the message of Jesus is buried under nonsense that people actually believe in] nor Enlightenment values helped that but whatever). My book says that “to you your system and to me mine”, but I still believe mine is better, ofc, my sense is not equal to nonsense or absence.