Sodium ion batteries have less energy density as opposed to Lithium ion (100-150 WH per Kg instead of 150-250). I’m curious how much these “wet” batteries improve that. The article doesn’t say.
Nonetheless, even if it’s not the new battery for your car, it could be useful as energy storage for the grid, storing green (solar) energy for the night, and desalinating seawater at the same time.
We hear about a new battery chemistry like every week. Do most never get to commercialization?
They mostly these articles are showing new avenues for research. Most are deadends usually due to issues with production/scalability.
Sodium Ions batteries are coming to market, however the issue is that Lithium Ion are just improving faster and making it harder for Sodium Ion batteries to compete.
Unless other situations where the established technology wins due to inertia, sodium ion batteries have two benefits that make them interesting regardless:
Firstly, they are safer. A punctured sodium ion battery doesn’t catch fire, which massively simplifies safety design. That makes them very attractive for certain scenarios, especially ones where density is a secondary concern. That in turn means they get further development money instead of withering on the vine.
Secondly, they require fewer hard-to-obtain materials, which makes them attractive from a strategic perspective. This one should be less important than the safety factor but it’s also relevant.
I’m pretty sure we’ll actually see wet sodium cells in the wild if they are actually practical. Sodium ion tech is already being commercialized and if this brings it within the same ballpark as lithium ion then it becomes a very interesting choice for vehicles due to instant crash safety gains.
They also perform better in the cold making them a better choice for EVs in cold regions. This is why I think CATL saw the videos of cars getting killed by cold and pulled the trigger on retooling even with the lithium price crash.
Not to mention from a human rights perspective, it’s not just easier to obtain sodium than lithium but also more humane.
There is an industry for ethically-sourced materials, and even if this doesn’t completely replace lithium it can still significantly reduce the amount needed to meet demand, which can also encourage more ethical practices in that supply chain too, such as sourcing it from areas with stronger labor laws.
Too bad the market doesn’t care about human rights
That’s why sodium ion batteries are good. The market only cares when it effects their bottom line, and a few more years of development should see more Na+ battery market share
The harder to obtain materials aspect, while long term relevant, is barely a factor right now. Lithium production has exploded and resulted in a massive drop in prices that’s making the main consumer appeal for sodium batteries, price, a non-factor and driving some sodium battery producers out of business
R&d on these I’m guessing takes a little while. And it greatly depends on what niche they fill. Like the poster above said these might have lower density. For applications that move, that’s not usually good. How sensitive are they to hot and cold? That could necessitate thermal management.
They have slightly lower density right now, but there is work to increase the density, and it could very well get up to about 210wh/kg which would put it directly on par with current lithium ion batteries. So it could replace the low end of the EV market without any significant change except for a reduction in price by a lot.
One in ten of chemistries in the lab work in real world conductions. One in ten of those are cheap enough to consider production. One in ten of those can scale up to mass manufacturing. Most research works like that. You have to keep going until you hit jackpot.
Its that way with many technologies. The lead time on such research is long enough that market factors alter the viability by the time it is ready to get commercialized.
Quite often innovations from prototype technology can be transplanted into existing tech for part of the benefit, without having to build new production capacity. So the new technology does not commercialised, but the learnings from it does.
No, that’s why we use the same batteries Voltaire did on his frogs.
Voltaire was a French poet.
Alessandro Volta was the electrochemist.
JFC…what do they teach in schools any more?
Well, I know the difference between alkaline, NiCd, NiMH, and lithium batteries, and that they don’t grow on trees, so at least I have that.
probably too expensive and inefficient. LI-ion is pretty efficient compared to NA-ION.
LI-ion is pretty efficient compared to NA-ION.
at room temperature, but in the real world, where it gets cold, sodium batteries have an advantage.
Li-ion technology has huge factories behind it, so economies of scale apply here. The first Na-ion battery factories have just started, so everything is more expensive to manufacture on a small scale. However, the ingredients are cheaper and easily available. Once they ramp up production, we can make a fair comparison between the two.
I have a feeling LIBs are going to be more expensive, but they won’t disappear since high energy density is very handy in mobile applications like cars and phones. NIBs are probably going to end up being a lot cheaper, which should make them a popular option in all the less demanding applications, like grid energy storage, kitchen scales, and anything in between.
the strategy of retaining crystal interlayer water yielded a specific capacity of 280 mA h g−1 at 10 mA g−1, one of the highest capacities reported for SIB cathodes in literature.
All I could find. This isn’t a statement about capacity(?) Units are wrong(?)
Its worth noting how preliminary this research is. Currently these “batteries” are just jars with chemicals.
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2025/TA/D5TA05128B
https://www.rsc.org/suppdata/d5/ta/d5ta05128b/d5ta05128b2.mp4
Fairly sure those units are milliamp•hour per gram which makes sense for energy density.
And instead of charging them, you can drink them! Unlike Lithium Ion batteries, which you have to chew.
But can you drink them after they were charged?
And how does that affect the taste?
My dream is to taste lightning.
My dream is to taste lightning.
Should have checked out Benjamin Franklin’s dinner parties when you had a chance.
Its got electrolytes! It’s what plants crave!
Me: looking at plants after realizing that I’m full of ions
“KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS!”
Sounds like a win/win!
My very uneducated understanding is that sodium batteries can be produced virtually anywhere.
Not every battery application needs to maximize energy density, so sodium batteries are good where that is the case.
I also did not read about sodium ion batteries characteristics versus lithium ion, so there might also be other use cases where sodium ion batteries are better.
Exactly this, there’s a huge market for energy storage, where cost, power and cycle life matter way more than size and weight. And Na-ion can be produced in countries that do not have access to lithium mines, making transport less of an issue and countries more self-sustaining.
Hilarious…all of these batteries are coming out of one country because only one country is doing serious R&D.
Every week with the “miracle battery!” headlines. This has been going on for ages and I’m sick of it.
Sodium-ion batteries are not hype though, they are in production use in multiple industries already. They are generally superior to Lithium based batteries in all regards, with the exception of having a bit lower energy density. An equivalent LiFePO4 battery might be 70-80% of the size for the same storage. It’s not a big deal for large applications like cars and solar storage.
Yeah, the advantages of all these sodium batteries, in my mind, is that they are stable and rugged enough to build up a backbone of a energy storage system for a grid. I’m seriously thinking about them for my house, in the UK.
Also not nearly as much of a fire hazard.
Yes, I am very intrigued. For something the size of half a shipping container I could power my house for almost a month. This is of course fantasy because I don’t have $20,000 to throw down. But combine it with solar cells that have gotten really cheap and you could indefinitely power your house for next to nothing.
Cool.
If they have a bit lower energy density than Lithium batteries, then where does the claim that they store twice the energy come from?
Twice the energy than the previous sodium battery tech. Nowhere does it say its twice as good as Li-ion. That’s an assumption you made.
Sounds like it came from that article about the new kind of sodium batteries with vanadium that are doing that desalination business. I was describing the general technology rather than that specific new one in the article.
Right up there with “cause/cure for dementia found”
“Dyslexia for cure found!”
350 page study concludes some people spend too much time reading.
We found the cure for Alzheimer’s but can’t remember what it was. I think it began with a “c”. Who are you?
Tuesday.
It’s time for your nap, Mr President.
cure for dementia found"
The US government could use some of that these days.
Charged with fusion power! From space! Made from privately mined asteroids!
And it’s got electrolytes!
Charging a car with fusion power is actually feasible. But it’ll take more energy to keep fusion going than it creates.
Sure and I guess you could charge it by using a PC’s cooling fan in reverse and blowing on it too.
TWICE AS MUCH COMPARED TO WHAT???
My left ball?
To answer your question we’ll need to conduct a series of electrical tests on your left ball. Please report to the lab as soon as possible, and wear loose pants.
Uh, can we do this experiment on someone else’s balls? Asking for a friend.
Of course. It is specifically froh42’s left balls that we will be experimenting on.
froh42 has the standard left ball. Once we get an accurate measurement we’ll be able to compare other balls to it and go from there.
Oooh, kinky.
You really need a statistical baseline on a population of left nuts.
Should set up a PPV website to offset costs of the study.
Going to need a control ball relative to the variable ball to calibrate your measurements.
Compared to a non-hydrous sodium vanadium oxide system.
Yep, I’m just annoyed by lazy headlines.
When the author gives the reader too much credit lol
No
Desalinating water might be the best part. Usually, solar power has the downside of needing storage and desalination has the downside of big energy requirements. If you can do both at the same time, it’s a big win for dry climates with lots of sun
and boats.
I can’t imagine it’s doing this at a rate that will make a big impact on water supply, I suspect this is one of those things they throw in just to have a good headline.
Water supply where? In Saudi Arabia it could be revolutionary tech when combined with solar
Not, for example, if it’s only producing 1l/day.
But you can’t imagine it doing a lot more?
I don’t think batteries will soak up that much salt for their use. And I’d imagine they saturate over time. It’s very different than something built specifically for deslination.
Each battery won’t, but a factory making lots of batteries…
Maybe. If it was a compelling case I’d think they’d show us the data.
They are not going to get the sodium from desalination, they will mine it because it’s cheaper.
Desalination sodium is free if you want the water
and more pure
Exactly, the desalination gimmick is bullshit for STEM ignorant hippies.
Countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE depend on it
Sodium Ion is a real game changer. But I doubt it will compete with Lithium Ion on energy density anytime soon.
But that’s not necessary to make major changes in the power grid. Solar and wind is already cheapest form of energy generation even considering the expense of Lithium to store the energy when renewables aren’t generating. If you’re just installing stationary battery banks, you don’t care that much about the energy density as you would for a battery in a car or phone. Set up banks of cheap sodium ion batteries strategically and not only do you have plenty of power stored for when it’s not sunny or windy, you may avoid widespread power outages when power lines are downed.
Sodium ion has the same “energy density”, but lower density because of its honeycomb structure.
This story is actually about a sodium-vanadium wet battery, not sodium ion. NaVn batteries are a wet flow battery that have been around for a while, they are intended for stationary power use.
New tit ion battery generates fifteen times the power and shits butter pecan ice cream. And, like every other battery chemistry there’s ever been a news article for, isn’t real and will never enter production.
I see that sentiment on every battery news, but it sure seems to me like battery tech is advancing quite drastically. Are there over-hyped headlines and articles pumping up tech that isn’t anywhere near completion? Sure, but meanwhile EVs have become a thing, house batteries, etc.
Sodium Ion already does 5000+ cycles. Adding Vanadium is not a scalable material. It is very expensive. 400 cycles steady is not useful information because it needs to do much more. They didn’t state a wh/kg density. This is probably not a viable research vector, but “big Vanadium” has proposed a rental model to make Vanadium more scarce for other applications. Flow batteries (a fuel cell with tanks of electrolytes) provides an ultra easy way of recycling/selling the vanadium for traditional uses. Battery rental that forces returning it could be viable.
Right up there with the batteries that would contain about 1 kg of silver in them. Even if they didn’t become insanely expensive you’d have tweakers foaming at the mouth to steal your batteries.
i’ll take 10 please.
What is the catch?
Bullshit headline. It neither desalinates water nor it’s better than Li-ion, because you know physics is pretty hard to cheat
you use grid power, not a miracle
What do they do with the Chlorine though?
They run a pool service
🤨 Is this a reference to what I think it’s a reference to?
Clean chickens.
Man this title reminded me of an old animation involving iPhone and some Android phone, lemme go find…
The part about transforming into a jet and flying you to an island reminded me of the title.
TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.
These new lithium-ion batteries get to 300-400Wh/kg range.
We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density. Do you really want to carry 100g of TNT in your pocket or few tons of TNT in vehicle going 100km/h.
Of course things are not directly comparable, but ball parks.
i’d say stability is more important than energy density
like gasoline has more than 10x the energy density than tnt and we’re perfectly fine with many kg of that on a vehicle going 100km/h
a fully fueled vehicle is the equivalent of ~600kg of TNT, but it’s very stable whilst TNT is not
That is true, but my small EV the batteries are 500kg, same car with combustion engine only has 40L fuel tank.
Stability is important, but lithium-ion ain’t really that stable either. Still waiting some solid state to get made.
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFe-PO) are actually really stable. Way less likely to catch fire in thermal runaway and don’t lose capacity as easily.
They just aren’t very energy dense, so you need more weight per wh. They also operate at a lower voltage per cell which means they charge slower.
They are used in short to med range EVs already, but the lower capacity makes it impractical to put enough for longer range EVs.
As an aside, I would argue that for the majority of people a large capacity EV battery is a bit of a waste. Mine is ~70Kwh, give or take. In optimal conditions my car estimates 240-250mi at 100%. Over the winter it’s showing anywhere from 140-180mi at 80%.
I moved cross country right after getting it and drove it 1000 miles. It took a bit longer, than it would in a gas car, but it was doable. Just have to plan segments to get to the next charger and try to charge to 100% with level 2 charging (240v AC) if you can when you stop for the night.
Sodium ion is generally much more stable.
Yeah, lithium ion is a good stopgap while we develop better options, but it’s by no means stable. Get them too hot or puncture a cell and you’re going to have a bad time.
TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.
How do you recharge TNT?
We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density.
I mean, we’re definitely running into a problem of how you build a battery without also building a bomb. But the entire point of TNT is rapid thermal expansion. The point of a battery is very low voltage steady release of electrical charge.
I might also note that C4 has around 6 Mwh/kg. A bit of applied chemistry can go a long way to improving energy efficiency. And that’s before you take advantage of geometry to focus pressure, via a shaped charge.
Point being, there’s a lot of clever ways to juice a lemon. We’re a long way from the end of the road on battery improvement.
Yeah but firewood is like 5 kwh/kg, or 4 times the energy density of TNT. We drive around with wood in our cars all the time.
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Kinda, yes? Phones already do so much, why not one additional feature to deter theft.
We’ve got a lot of that going around in the USA right now.
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It’s already ionized e.g. NaOH.
The compound, called nanostructured sodium vanadate hydrate (NVOH), delivered far stronger results when used in its hydrated form.
