It’s even better when they want “historical accuracy” in a fictional world that’s based on medieval times.
Yes. I agree with with Donny in this meme.
To the same effect, I’m bothered with how everyone in the new Odyssey movie looks way too pasty white for Mediterranean mariners. Was it really necessary to cast big names for the movie? Couldn’t they find anyone that fit those parts better?
Hells, I had a lengthy discussion with an enthusiast for that time period and he went livid when we started talking about the costume design…
Hollywood is becoming altogether tiresome.
To the same effect, I’m bothered with how everyone in the new Odyssey movie looks way too pasty white for Mediterranean mariners. Was it really necessary to cast big names for the movie? Couldn’t they find anyone that fit those parts better?
They want to make money. Stars bring in general audiences. No name actors don’t.
And plenty of Greek people are pasty white. I know several.
I hate how every old outfit.It looks brand new and spotless. That’s not even how we are today back in the day.People were far more tolerated, and there were more dirty old and worn outfits. I want to see outfits that look legit, worn, not brand new!
Look, I just want historical accuracy in my movie about sea monsters and cyclopses!
As we all know, despite part of the story taking place in Africa, there were no black people in ancient Greece!
:The sound of a thousand dicks ripping when the single African character was found in Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 :
BlaCk pEopLe neVEr wEnt tO EurOPe iN The MiDdlE AgEs!
I’m surprised they even had one given how controversial the devs were the first time.
I will believe its about equality when we get Black Hitler in a Netflix historical drama. WITH the gay sex scenes, please.
Best I can do is Black Jesus on Adult Swim.
Yeah but that’d be too sexy, i can just imagine once he’s nailed. The cross girls slobbing on that nob while he can’t fight back.
I mean, you don’t think the devil will tempt Jesus? It be like “if you cum you go to hell!”
Oh nein! Ein schwarzer Hitler!
I don’t care about the race of the actor 99% of the time until they race swap a character just for the sake of inclusiveness.
If you wanna be inclusive then make a new character of that race.
Or use some of the existing characters of that race. Where tf is Static at, DC?
Underrated but not forgotten.
What’s wrong with doing something just for the sake of inclusiveness? That is a moral good in and of itself. Really, inclusiveness is limp-wristed weak term. The better term would be “correcting historical exclusion.”
We used to find it acceptable to only write white characters. Characters were written white not for any important narrative reason, but just due to a racist ideal of white as default. Then when people try to correct this historical exclusion, fragile white men lose their god damn minds.
When you’re used to privilege equality feels like discrimination.
Because it’s not real inclusivity it’s pandering.
Yeah yeah racists gonna racist but to me race swapping a character for the sake of being inclusive is the worst way to do it. It’s basically going “fuck people are complaining we’re not inclusive enough. Fuck it this characters black now. See guys! We’re being inclusive! The character acts exactly the same as they did before because we can’t be bothered to actually put effort into this change, but we’re inclusive!”
If you can’t come up with a new character or a new story with whatever characters you want from the beginning it feels forced and disingenuous.
I don’t think there is any such malice intended. Corporate media conglomerates tend to be focused primarily on how to offend as few people as possible. Insulting potential customers isn’t profitable.
I don’t see it as disingenuous. It seems like the audience just wanting the characters to look like them. And this is how media has always been done. Look how Disney took classic and violent Germanic fairy tails and then morphed them into sanitized Americanized versions of the characters. Should we abandon Disney’s Sleeping Beauty because the prince doesn’t stay faithful to the source material by raping the princess to awaken her?
Tales get reinterpreted. Stories get retold. New versions of old stories are made and retold through the lens of new times and places. Welcome to human culture. This is how we do things. This is how we always do things. This is how you end up with a white Jesus or a Chinese Jesus.
I hate to break this to you, but the US is no longer a white nation. It’s a multi-racial, multi-ethnic melting pot. The majority of newborns in the country are not white. Audiences want characters that represent them. And sometimes that means retelling classic characters through a new lens. Sometimes that lens is racial. Consider it from a few perspectives.
Think of the people actually making this art. These films are the work of actual human beings! Don’t forget that. Especially in works of fiction, where everything is fantasy anyway, why shouldn’t the characters in a work not look like the human beings actually creating that work?
Or think of the people viewing it. Let’s say you’re a 5 year old black girl in the US, and you’re really into fairy tale princesses. You want to imagine yourself as a princess in a classic fairy-tale castle, something out of a fantastical version of Medieval Europe.
Is a young black girl allowed to have such dreams? Or must she have historically-accurate dreams? Must she dream of being a princess in Great Zimbabwe?
Or is she allowed to dream of being a princess at all? Must she dream of much lower social strata?Must her dreams be so confined? Must a child dream of historical accuracy? Are we policing the dreams of our children based on race? If she wants, why can’t she imagine a classic fairy tale castle where everyone looks like her? Or as diverse as the world around her?
By your rule, she could never have her dream realized on screen. Little white girls get to have that vision fulfilled, little black girls do not. Being a fairy tale princess is only something white girls are allowed to really do.
Children will have the dreams they have. And it’s not healthy for children to grow up only idolizing people and characters that do not resemble them. It is incredibly valuable to have real and fictional examples of people of your race, gender, etc. doing the things and living the lives you dream of living. And fictional characters often are role models. Hell, most fairy tales have an explicit moral to them. They’re designed to be role models!
By your rules, we couldn’t make an Asian Cinderella that a young Asian girl could look up to. We couldn’t create an black Rapunzel a young black girl could identify with. Etc. We would just always have to tell them with white characters. Even though these are completely fantastical stories in literal magical worlds. But because their original authors would have assumed white characters, we just have to keep doing that forever. Hopes and dreams of children be damned.
You know what that really results in? That results in these old works being abandoned and forgotten. Again, the country’s future is majority-minority. Viewers want to see themselves in the art they view. Artists want to represent themselves in their art. If we adopt the rule that you have to respect the original author’s ethnicity choices, that will simply result in classic stories being abandoned. If we had some rule that we couldn’t remove the rape from Sleeping Beauty, Disney never would have made that movie. All the stories you grew up with as a kid, where all the characters are just assumed white? Those will never be retold. They’ll just be remembered as “those old racist stories.”
Is that really the future you want? I don’t think so. I grew up with stories where most of the characters were assumed white. And you know what, if casting a multi-ethnic cast for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory means the story gets retold down the generations, then I’m all for it. Works need to remain relevant to the times they are in. Otherwise they will not be retold.
We’re not deleting the old copies. You’ll always be able to go and rewatch the original versions of these works. But if we’re talking new works? New versions of old stories? It needs to remain relevant to both the people making it and viewing it. And ultimately, more inclusive works are simply more popular with audiences and thus, more profitable. Hamilton made bank.
That’s the difference between “story” and “HIstory”. History should be remembered. But of course the more accurate it has to be described, the less feasible it is to record and observe all of that. And that’s not for children to do, but for historians. Children should learn essential parts from history, though. Maybe some age-appropriate stories are good for that. Of course, children are the future and so we should make them able to imagine a better world, a more inclusive one with lesser (or ideally without any) non-harmful boundaries. So yes, let anyone being able to dream of becoming a princess or a frog or whatever he/she/anything wants to be.
😀
Must a child dream of historical accuracy?
is such an amazing quote, well written
Thank you!
We’re not deleting the old copies. You’ll always be able to go and rewatch the original versions of these works.
…yet. Remember, you’ll own nothing and be happy with it. Or else.
I still find it amusing that the first time Amazon stripped people of a book they had purchased and remotely instructed all Kindle devices to delete already downloaded copies was a version of 1984. Couldn’t have been more fitting if they tried.
Corporations don’t actually care about inclusion. The only reason why they do anything is because they think it will make money.
good actions for wrong reasons are… still good actions. you want to hire black actors to pander to minorities? sure, it’ll still help a little child imagine themselves as the hero, and help the actor show their skill. you want to hire a sensitivity consultant because it’ll look good in the credits? please do, at best they’ll really help, at worst they’ll get a free paycheque.
and if a race swapped character acts the same way as they did before? well alright, as long as it’s not completely nonsensical. obviously there are social and cultural differences but the world is vast, plenty of personalities out there.
we become what we do. this inclusiveness might be caused by pandering today, but because it’s being done at all, tomorrow it’ll be the norm
not the best way forward, but better than not moving at all
Hell, we used to exclusively write Greek and Roman period dramas with British actors speaking in English accents. Absurdity has never been far from filmmaking.
Real inclusiveness would be for Ken Jeong to play Samuel Jackson in his biography.
I’m talking works of fiction. Even Hamilton is not meant to be a faithful documentary accurately predicting historical events.
How would you feel if Super Mario was a white male instead of an Italian?
But seriously, some changes might stick like a sore thumb, it depends.
Or maybe don’t pick characters that three minutes of thought would reveal massive problems with swapping them.
How would you even know if they were the one who casted auditioned best anyway?
Dismissing any black person for a role because if they happen to get cast its just for inclusiveness is just racist
Hey I’m all for recasting anyone into any role, but it’s suspicious when they seem to keep doing it with gingers… Are the writers all dyslexic racists?
Obligatory Tim Minchin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
Dont forget about the whitewashing too.
US christians would lose their minds if you got a middle-eastern to play that one specific person.
Like the Prince of checks notes Persia?
Rings of power
John Wayne as Genghis Khan!
Rhe racist role that cost him his life
i assume its about elon musk getting mad there was black people in oddessy, Nolan dint care about accuracy.
This is the worst when the film is legitimately bad, too.
Like, we all pretty much agree Gods of Egypt was a bad movie, but it’s still got defenders because they think we’re mad about the Black God and not the whole entire cast of White Guys.
Even worse is Captain Marvel. It’s just a terrible non-plot without any character growth and intrigue, it’s the female version of Green Lantern 2011, but unlike Green Lantern we can’t all agree it’s a bad movie for all the same reasons.
Movie studios go out of their way to amplify a few outspoken racists when people start trying to criticize movies on reasonable grounds. That’s why when all you can hear about a movie is that it’s “woke shit”, it’s because there’s nothing good about it.
I honestly think this was the strategy for The Little Mermaid. Casting Halle Bailey took all the attention off the fact that it was another soulless live-action remake of a Disney classic, and nobody wanted to criticize it because they were afraid of being lumped in with all the racist dipshits (not to mention all the free advertising they got from said racist dipshits’ angry xitter posts).
The musical sections were so off putting to me, idk how that movie got 90% on Rotten Tomatoes if not for vote manipulation.
I haven’t seen it myself, but the only song I’ve heard was an annoying song sung by an annoying character, and the whole song was about how annoying she is. I could only wonder, who is this song for? The whole point of it seemed to be as off-putting as possible.
Captain Marvel was genuinely just a bland and uninteresting character. Similar story with Rey.
Admittedly a lot of comic book characters are drawn as stoics which is hard to adapt to movie and TV without making them seem unemotional, like with Spawn, except in the Spawn movie we had Klown which more than made up for the lack of facial expression from Spawn.
A similar issue with Hellboy, except we had really good effects and the glorious voice of Ron Perlman to make it work.
I loved Captain Marvel! Maybe you need to stop expecting Shakespeare from capeshit?
It’s cool that you enjoyed it! But there’s no need to pretend that this is a binary choice. Guardians of the Galaxy is also capeshit with a stoic woman, yet IMO Gamorra is a much more interesting character than Captain Marvel.
I also liked many parts of the movie, but some other parts were big enough misses that I’m not really interested in rewatching.
IMO Gamorra is a much more interesting character than Captain Marvel.
Eh. Gamora is the love interest of a protagonist of the movie. (Arguably the main one in GoG, obviously but still.)
Captain Marvel is the protagonist of her movie.
Idk, I’ve seen GoG movies twice at least but I haven’t rewatched Captain Marvel… maybe it’s a good time. Thanks.
But yeah for the female characters from GoG i just find Nebula a far more interesting character. We actually see her develop and see her past and she’s not just a romantic interest (even when there’s hint of a bit of that perhaps), unlike Gamora. Gamora didn’t really have an arc imo, just disliking his “daddy” and then dying. And then coming back and being a bitch more or less. Dk, seems uninteresting to me.
That might be why Gamora works and Captain Marvel doesn’t, because of human(?) connections.
She starts out the film as a lone vigilante trying to keep the infinity stone out of Thanos’ hands, is willing to harm or even kill people to do so if needed, but realizes she needs help from the others to accomplish this goal. She threatens to kill Starlord for putting moves on her and is just generally uncooperative for most of her scenes but slowly starts to trust and appreciate them.
Captain Marvel is the opposite development: She’s got a bunch of space nazi friends who do bad things together and she has no idea because of her space-magic amnesia. She communicates with the earthlings but mostly at gunpoint or under similar threat, except for the singular living woman who knows her past, and then when she discovers her powers she just goes and finishes everything on her own with 0 struggle or hesitation. It’s the extremist teenage power fantasy: become a complete recluse and kill everyone who looks at you funny.
It’s the extremist teenage power fantasy: become a complete recluse and kill everyone who looks at you funny.
Lol. Sure, but if that’s the amount of contempt we’re putting to our analysis, Gamora is the ultimate kawai waifu that the hero is destined to be with, even getting his godlike Daddies (think like an Arnie as inlaw oh wait no who has that can’t be the same person leading this movie) acceptance for his boyfriend, who is overall very average, very mid all around, but still saves the universe.
They’re all complete fantasies and based on a lot of silly wishful stuff.
“Threatens to kill Starlord for putting the moves on him” lol, as if that was even remotely an actual threat instead of thinly veiled sexual innuendo. No way, the mid tier guy has to like, make the attractive lady want them through being a bad person, despite being very mid and not having the attention of the attractive kawai waifus, overcoming it through the power of personality. But also, he’s literally a god. Well, “A celestial”. Which never gets shown, except the once, which doesn’t reflect to his abilities or strengths in any way.
Yes, the ultimate standin for the average comic fan, I guess?
But Cpt Marvel actually develops as a character. Perhaps from bad to not-so-good, but they develop. And perhaps you don’t enjoy aspects of the movie which I might, I dk. We prolly like different things, and honestly, can’t remember that much of Cpt Marvel as a plot, so it couldn’t have been that good, but I do remember enjoying the character of Cpt Marvel more than Gamora at any point. Gamora might have been interesting in some comics or smth but at least in the movie she didn’t have development, just a romantics interest of the lead who then gets killed by Arn… Big Daddy.
lol, as if that was even remotely an actual threat instead of thinly veiled sexual innuendo
She turned his head and held a knife to his neck…
Exactly. Sexual innuendo.
Or who here or in the audiences actually thought the protagonist was going murdered in the middle of a movie like that?
No-one.
Thinly veiled sexual innuendo. Not perhaps from the characters own perspective, but we’re not her, we’re looking at the movies as structure. Did you by the way know the rule “any announced plans never happen”. And even the audience doesn’t know they know it, they do. Like whenever a hero goes over their plan or something. Any actual promises or plans that are announced and “will happen” never do. So “I will kill yourself if you don’t stop your horny (average looking) ass from from horning after me” actually becomes more like “I won’t kill you, despite you continuing exactly like before”
And even then GoG movies still have a better female character, Nebula.
Same. We had fun, and the music was great! Also young Samuel L. Jackson!
I feel like the people defending Captain Marvel should be more upset with how hamfisted its attempts at pandering are. Like playing “I’m just a girl” or having someone literally tell her to smile more followd by her saying “did you just ask me to smile more?”
Representation is important, but you have to put in some effort.
Honestly I am sad that telling people to smile more has become a cultural faux pas, I would like to be able to tell everyone to smile more if not for ourselves than for each other.
Smiles are earned, not gifted, fake smiles hold no value and make it harder to recognize genuine happiness.
It’s fine for people to experience neutral and negative emotions, pretending to be happy doesnt improve anything.
Maybe you should frown more instead.
Seeing other people happy makes us happy
Seeing other people sad makes us sad
It’s called empathy, but I can understand it’s a foreign concept to a lot of people on here.
I told you, if people smiles just cause they’re told to I won’t be happy seeing them smile cause it may be fake. If everyone fakes being happy whats the point? Fix the problem instead (if it’s possible, if not then bad luck, we can’t be happy everyday). And don’t lecture me on empathy, you’re the one who doesn’t acknowledge people might get rightfully upset when being told to ignore their feelings and fake happiness. It’s called oversimplifying things. They’re smiling? They’re happy! Bruh.
Lol okay mr human lie detector. Go back to solving crimes with your chimpanzee sidekick.
Do you see a flashy video and don’t care if it’s AI or not cause who needs reality anyways? If I want fake videos I’ll go watch a movie. If I want fake smiles I’ll go for some theatre.
Gotta take up the art of mime. The art of mime makes people smile. Some when I arrive, others when I leave.
A good alternative is to find ways to make people smile instead :)
Fuck you. Don’t tell people to smile more; give them a reason to smile! Tell a joke! Be genuinely kind!
You said Captain Marvel, I thought Wonder Woman. Same thing though. 😅
I do understand why many people react like that to criticism of something empowering though. If you’ve been oppressed, bullied and hurt for something forever you of course see it everywhere (because that’s where the source of pain usually is/was, fucking everywhere). I’m dealing with that shit myself, it takes serious energy not to immediately jump at people when they express anything that could be transphobic. After an awful day I might only realise later how I overinterpreted a situation.
Now of course there is a small but loud minority of performative “supporters” who completely misinterpret most criticism, verbally attack people on sight and are genuinely annoying for no good reason. That’s an absolute minority though, hard to distinguish from (bad-faith) trolls and just a menace to everyone. Unfortunately you generally can’t distinguish those on social media…
A lot of people love Wonder Woman 2017 but definitely not for her own character development. She just kind of wants to do whatever she wants, escapes the island and does it, and then they shoehorn in a twist villain at the end.
I think what makes it work is the refreshing grimdark take on the war and that the character who does the development and experiences a magical adventure is this sidekick pilot dude and gets to bear witness to the antics of a goddess.
I have similar feelings about the Aquaman Sequels.
Wonder Woman also manages to make great humor out of how she’s basically in the wrong place, wrong time. That contrast works and makes all the interactions and characters themselves around it more interesting than they would be in a different plot. The ending really is the greatest weakness of the movie; a clearly way easier and better ending would have been that there was no big bad guy, that it was just the humans being humans. Now it just fell flat instead of having some slightly deeper and way more interesting insight.
I’d say it’s what usually fails most action films in general though. Big bad evil, hero fight evil, evil beaten yayy but heavy cost. Even otherwise good action films like John Wick end up repeating the cliché. It’s very disappointing every time they do it and has ruined so many movies already. Do people really want to see the boring end fight that you know is coming and will always go the same way over and over again?
What happens when they cast a black actor to replace another ethnic group?
If ethnicity is a vital part of the character’s identity or role in the historical context - it’s obviously only appriopriate to maintain it.
Otherwise, eh, whatever
Right but as a person who is ethnic and not back, them playing my people is just as offensive as a white person. Especially since they’re al American or British black actors
If there’s ever a Hollywood Adaptation of Hamilton, I hope that Lin keeps to his casting choices as reflecting modern America, not 1776 America.
The Conservatives would lose their mind. But I also couldn’t imagine a white guy playing Hercules Mulligan. Certainly not singing Yorktown.
Actually probably most of the original cast would be in it, anyway. Sort of like In The Heights, except hopefully reprising their own original roles.
Certainly wouldn’t be a sung-through musical though. Hollywood would need to split it into two, with extra “world-building” and dialogue, like they did with Wicked.
Show tunes are fully gay anyway. Most wont care.
No conservatives gonna care either, so long as the wife blows them afterwards.
You know what we call people whose job is to pretend to be other people they are not? Actors.
