All my homies hate agile, Jira, scrum, kanban, etc.
In truth none of these items are inherently wrong - what’s wrong is leadership picking up new tools and adopting management structures expecting them to solve fundamental organizational issues.
Instead they only serve to magnify the outcomes of your existing corporate culture.
It’s funny that “Individuals and interactions over processes and tools” is the first of the tenets of agile and the most ignored. I think most people’s frustrations with agile are from people worrying too much about processes and tools.
Scrum/Agile has 2 advantages over waterfall.
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things that don’t work get stopped early, without stigma.
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the team works together towards an overall goal, it is not individuals working on individual tasks.
The “agile” tools themselves rarely encourage either of these practices.
Jira
- assigns tasks to individuals.
- treats closed and cancelled differently.
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I think you hit the main issue right there. Devs don’t hate the tool, they hate that the tool doesn’t solve the issue. Like trying to drill a hole with a screw and a hammer.
Strong agree! It drives me crazy how much hate scrum agile gets because when it’s implemented intelligently I’ve found it really helps align everyone’s expectations (I’m a dev)
I use Teams and Jira, and I can’t even imagine the amount of wasted time when I click anything in either of them and nothing happens for a good while, just waiting around.
If you press F12 and look at the network calls you can see the insane amount of analytics they are sending for every twitch of the mouse
Why? What do these do?
Jira is a masterpiece compared to the dumpster fire that is Teams.
Maybe the old, discontinued on-premise version. The cloud version of JIRA is a huge step back.
With that said, Teams is not a good product either.
Teams is the worst product Microsoft has released since IE.
Have you heard of windows millennium?
We do not speak of that one. It was a dark time, a chaotic time. Do not utter that name so casually. Many know not of which we speak. May their souls never experience the curse of that knowledge.
There’s still Jira Data Center but nobody wants to pay extra for it so instead we have to deal the the garbage that is Cloud.
I beg to differ.
I’ve not had a real issue with teams since the early ‘new teams’ release. Nor have I had issues prior.
Using Jira is actually something I dread every day.
Knowing I have to go through the list of tasks and projects, where each click means another few seconds of staring blankly at the screen as it loads.In an age where I’m used to every interaction having a near instant reaction, using Jira feels like peeling potatoes with a butter knife.
Maybe you just don’t have a reasonable comparison. We just switched from Slack and Zoom to Teams and it has significantly impacted our ability to collaborate and communicate. It’s constantly dropping calls, video quality is awful, annotation is awful, the layout is wasteful with tons of wasted space, audio is terrible, there’s no closed captioning visible while screen sharing, there are too many problems to list. It’s the type of product I’d expect from a high school programming class, not a trillion dollar company.
constantly dropping calls, video quality is awful […], audio is terrible,
I have none of these issues with Teams. Maybe your internet connection sucks?
I have gigabit internet. It doesn’t suck for anything except Teams.
As an outsider to a lot of such corporate things it sounds like they both suck a lot, just in different ways.
I never had any issues with Zoom or Slack. They do what they’re supposed to do. Jira is fine too, but I’m not a PM, so I don’t have to deal with anything other than the Kanban board.
Edit: I guess it’s relevant that I’m on a MacBook Pro, and not a Windows machine.
Don’t worry teamsters we added 6 new ticket statuses so they can get auto-sorted straight to the abyss.
Want issues?
Start with Jira
jira made me quit software dev (not by its own, but a significant factor)
I hate jira because it slots your work stupidly by the management, or so I feel it.
A manager usually works with time slots, say 8 a day (or whatever), they are all mostly disconnected, like do meeting with A, go to standup of team B, PMD for dev C etc etc. Dev isn’t like that but everyone seems to start thinking it is: how many “items” was finalised last “sprint” etc and other stupid metrics.
Am I alone here or is there even worse things with jira in your opinions?
Azure Dev Ops and Azure Boards is even worse. Wish I could quit dev
I feel you there too bud!
Now imagine a very large company implementing that shit software for other kinds of engineering projects! Yey! Lot’s of great engineers have quit because of it.
Jira, we’ll brain drain your company and make it seem more productive!
Next thing you know…well the guy who understood that is no longer here. But we can take our best guess… should the door pop inward or outward during a flight?
I absolutely love how this implies that the team is happy before going to Jira.
so not only can Atlassian not write software, they can’t develop a usable product, and they can’t even market it without insinuating how shitty it is.
I read “happy ___ starts with ___” as stating that happiness was the eventual result of a process that started with ___.
Yes, like most normal people do.
There’s a lot of discussion when you’re a software dev about the best way to do things, and a lot more is spent on this debate than on actually writing code. One could wonder if there is so much discussion because there are so many good ideas that it’s difficult to choose the one that is optimal for the situation.
But then you read one of these posts on lemmy and you are reminded that someone with internet access and thumbs could spare the short time they have to take a shit to egregiously misunderstand a simple fucking slogan, smugly post about their shit take on the internet, and then return to their job where they will then spend hours misunderstanding the simplest of fucking concepts, slowing down everyone else along with them.
Jira is great software if you ignore all the insufferable bugs in it that Atlassian ignores just to make their on-prem option so clunky you have no choice but to use their SAAS offering. I know, I know, “ThEy DrOpPeD sUpPoRt AlReAdY!”
ever had to rebuild a sprint because Jira failed to properly migrate the old cards over to the new one, but instead throws them all into the backlog randomly and now you have to hunt them down over the next hour?
how about when you’re writing an update to a card and you’re two paragraphs in with log examples and the UI decides to dump your entire content when you accidentally click outside the wysisyg?
But how can I forget the worst one! have you ever had your session timeout while you’re writing a detailed bug report with screenshots, logs, and example data, and when you finally submit it you lose EVERYTHING because you need to login again and you can’t go back?
I have, and you know what, I’ll still use Jira because even the best trash can be better than the worst trash.
yeah, I’ll take a fat dump on shitty products all day long because the negligence of Atlassian product development is abhorrent and deserves to be called out.
I’ve often wondered if Atlassian even uses the products they sell. There’s just so many stupid bugs that I would assume no one at Atlassian would put up with if they had to eat their own dog food. Instead, those bugs don’t seem to get fixed and seem to linger in their products forever.
ever had to rebuild a sprint because Jira failed to properly migrate the old cards over to the new one, but instead throws them all into the backlog randomly and now you have to hunt them down over the next hour?
No, never. Did you maybe not select the ‘move to new sprint’ option when closing the old one?
how about when you’re writing an update to a card and you’re two paragraphs in with log examples and the UI decides to dump your entire content when you accidentally click outside the wysisyg?
That has never happened to me, either.
congrats, you’ve had a far better experience than I have. just because you haven’t had the joys of experiencing Jira in its true form doesn’t negate the atrocious UX many others have. if Jira was the perfect product that you claim, then why is there so much vitrol and hate for the product at all?
I started my career as a big supporter of Jira. It made the work so easy to manage and report on. then sometime in 2020 an update came through that absolutely shit on my already over-burdened workload.
I used to deal with the sprint problem every kickoff, and yes I did select migrate to new sprint. no it doesn’t work when the process breaks in the middle and doesn’t recover or rollback. now I don’t handle kickoff, so not my problem anymore but I witness it happen literally every kickoff.
I also used to deal with the WYSIWYG issue daily. now I don’t post updates to cards outside of one-liners like “check the logs at this time” or “fixed upstream in xy branch”.
I get why people share their hate online because misery loves company, but I just don’t get why anyone would waste so much effort on defending it. example; I use spaces over tabs. lots of hate either way online. never have I defended or argued over one vs the other. it’s a preference much like Jira. forced to use it at work and have to make the best of it.
so, why be a white knight for Atlassian if you’re not employed by them? and if you are employed by them, why be so dismissive about the issues brought up?
Wow, you are touchy. All I said was that I never experienced these two issues you report.
why be a white knight for Atlassian if you’re not employed by them
I don’t know. I’ll never share an opposing view ever again. All points I encounter shall from now on be taken as the one and only truth. I will never again engage in discourse, I promise.
They have a predatory business model. “Hey we’re cheaper than the competition”. Once you’re soaking in it and need features, they have options but it’ll cost you. I reckon they have slick sales people who know how to pander to the egos of middle management as well. You know … The people who don’t actually have to use the tool but sure like to feel like they somehow matter.
Where happy teams go to die.
Idk man, better than a post it Kanban… which is where I came from.
If Jira is shit, it’s not Jira, it’s your Manager. It takes some effort to learn and use, but when it’s set up and maintained, it helps a lot, especially for Virtual Teams.
Edit: But their Ai is shit. They gave it for free and now want to charge money for it. Nah bro, not for that retard.
Yeah, jira is going alright for us at work, but there are a lot of supporting people maintaining it and prioritizing things in meetings that we engineers don’t have to attend.
Everybody gangs up on hating Teams instead!
Teams and the entire Office-Package is pure pain on Linux. We have mixed OS (based on preference) but we all use Office and it’s a dread for our SW-Department. =[
I know teams is probably the most hated product in tech savvy corporate America, but I do at least give MS credit that I can let it live in a Firefox tab and my audio & video work fine for meetings.
But when anybody tries to use a Teams-equipped conference room? Whoo boy!
I think it’s because Skype was on that level 10 years ago until it got the Microsoft Enshit-Treatment.
Audio working in Teams? If I accept a call and then plug in my worthless usb headset, it just doesn’t function.
One time out of five or ten to be generous, making a room and inviting just 1 person just foesnt work either, gotta call up a third person to make the sound work.
I mean how hard can it be …
I think I need to compliment our IT department. I have experienced 0 problems with teams. Sometimes my network quality falls, but I just switch to my phone and everything continues.
Disclaimer: Never used the captions, meeting summary etc. Just the basics
The UI and UX is shit. Performance is shit. It’s not only about configuration.
We’ve been using Linear in my latest company and it is actually quite good. No bullshit fast UI, boards, issues linking with Git, a support that can take a feature request that is often implemented in a week or two after asking it.
I’ve tried out Linear (only peeked into it) and it’s the perfect contrast of performance against Jira.
Here’s my Jira experience. MS shop, have a programming department, but I’m not in programming and programming isn’t our core product.
Need something that requires a Jira request. I use MS Edge because that’s what IT recommends and it’s not my computer. The only putative upside is that it knows who I’m logged in as. I click on the link for Jira, it asks me if I want to sign in with my account, which I assume is the MS one since it has the right email/user for it. It tells me that’s the wrong one. Would I like to use my Atlassian account? Sure, let’s use the same email. Whoops, you don’t have an Atlassian account, but there’s an MS account for your company. Do you want to use that, or something from the usual list of places that will log you in (Google, Facebook, MS)? Note that the MS option is only included in the list of third-party logins even though it knows my company has MS logins setup. So I click the MS option, and it may or may not ask for my password, because I’m already logged in via Edge, but it will certainly do my 2FA. And now I’m finally able to tell IT what is bothering me, and they wonder why people always seem frustrated.
So, now that I’ve gone through that once, I can save a single click by not choosing the Atlassian account option and go directly to signing in with a third party. I can only assume this is supposed to be the streamlined process.
I mean, it just sounds like the people from your Tools/Infrastructure/IT/Devops/whatever-it’s-called-for-you department are fucking incompetent and can’t properly configure a Single Sign-On. Took mine a few years as well, I think the ticket was stuck in the queue behind the “restart some servers when nobody’s watching to see how long until they find the issue” tickets, which they seemed to be working on weekly.
Also, I can’t think of any reason why SSO can’t work with Mozilla or Chrome also, not just with Edge.
The problems with single sign-on and retained sign-on made it into The Boys. Most relatable scene in the show for me. I’m not saying my crew are geniuses, but this seems pretty endemic.
While I don’t like the main Jira software, the Jira Service Management part is actually kind of decent for my needs. It basically allows me to create a help desk for my small business, where they can report issues and I can view them in the Jira app. It’s somewhat limited on the free tier, only allowing 3 agents, but it works plenty fine for my use case.
As for the actual Jira software, I wouldn’t use it, since my workflow needs don’t require it.
This sign is a despicable lie.
See, before they started using Jira, they were happy, get it?! :-P
yeah sure, happy teams start with jira but they end up as angry and sad teams
Yeah, we were also once happy.
And then we started using Jira.
RIP
At least you’re not using Azure Devops boards, Service Now or Basecamp. Those are all worse in my opinion. I miss Jira.
[Actively using Azure Devops and ServiceNow] oh…
Jira teams start with happy*
Issue resolved
No defect
Will not fix
