Text for readability:
So far, Americans using RedNote have said they don’t care if China has access to their data. Viral videos on TikTok in recent days have shown Americans jokingly saying they will miss their personal “Chinese spy,” while others say they are purposefully giving RedNote access to their data in a show of protest against the wishes of the U.S. government.
“This also highlights the fact that people are thirsty for platforms that aren’t controlled by the same few oligarchs,” Quintin said. “People will happily jump to another platform even if it presents new, unknown risks.”
Lemmy doesn’t have the censorship and speech-control from those platforms, but it pretty much distributes your data widely to anybody that asks for it.
Hear me out: if you post stuff publicly, it is out there. The issue is data that shouldn’t be public getting public
This is it. A strong public domain benefits everyone. It is why open source software works.
AFAIU Lemmy sends your username, a user ID, and URI along with your message. That’s pretty innocuous.
It’s way less innocuous than you think.
But yeah, it’s only the stuff that you’d expect it to send. And only the stuff it needs to send. But the thing is, the valuable data those social networks gather is almost exactly that. They will invade your privacy and get everything they can, but the real value is on that and what you read. (What you read isn’t shared here.)
Content sure, but not where you are when you posted it and other meta data
On that note, I’d be shocked if one or more of the alphabet agencies haven’t developed a half-duplex version of the fediverse platforms purely for surveillance purposes. The openness of the ecosystem is really nice, but the default promiscuity of the protocols in question does have some specific and notable drawbacks.
It’s never really been about data collection. It’s about what service feeds users. The algorithm can be tweaked to provide slant towards particular ideals. It can sway elections. Some would rightly say that’s already done hard by western social apps. Yeah, and that’s wrong too. So they blame other countries for a smoke screen.
You forgot .ml
If you want more people to join the fediverse, you have to improve the user experience. People don’t want to read an article breaking down what the fediverse is, how to join an instance, how to find content, etc.
Streamline the join process so it doesn’t require learning the lore and technical training. Stop promoting the fediverse generally, and instead push people to easy to use frontends and popular instances. Remove the barriers to entry. If they want to dig deeper into different instances and the technical stuff, let them do that later. Stop loading the info dump at the front.
I agree that promoting the fediverse generally kind of doesn’t make sense. People join communities, not web protocols.
I wonder if we shouldn’t talk so much about “the fediverse” as we do about individual instances, because that’s what people actually join. They get the rest of the fediverse for free, but their home server will always be home. Just like with reddit back in the day, how I may not have identified much with the reddit overculture, I did love some of its communities.
Like look at the difference between the slrpnk communities, and the programming.dev communities. That’s something to be celebrated, like, come join this server - look at all the cool things we’re doing!
You get it. Well said.
Fediverse and decentralism confused me initially but then I learned I can just sign up at lemmy.world and use it normally without having to know the backend.
instead push people to easy to use frontends and popular instances.
I’ve seriously thought about starting up a website to do exactly this. The problem is I already have a mile long project list. Oh and I suck at UX lmao, backend and hosting/infrastructure stuffs that’s my jam. Putting together a nice UX with a good flow and then successfully promoting it…
Pixelfed’s app release seems like a good start.
A site goes to shit when everyone and their grandma hops on it. At the risk of sounding elitist, I would prefer to a part of the userbase that hasn’t been Eternal Septembered into the lowest common denominator.
All right then, keep your secrets. But then let’s promote a normie instance to Grandma so she doesn’t get brainwashed.
I dunno this kinda cracks me up a little because like…if you dig deep enough, were people flame-warring on usenet or BBS (wait lemme finish! Lol) over:
“Email needs way better UX and an insta-one-click-sign-up zero-thinking on-ramp so even a single-celled organism can figure it out!”?
That’s the easiest descriptor nowadays that explains the Fediverse. Email. “What if Twitter but as a generalized service that anybody could run, like email. Yahoo? Gmail? RobertLovesSurfing.net? They can all email each other but your account lives on one.”
A better way of seeking out an instance could be handy perhaps. I found Mastodon pretty smooth with “Hey you might like these if…!” Sort of suggestions. The openness of the platform should make this a much easier task than it might be otherwise, I think.
I also think better explaining the portability of your account data would help people see the benefit there.
I’d like more kinds of nerds to have an easier time getting on the Fediverse with us, so let’s improve that, but I also think we’re less popular BECAUSE the Fediverse is more about human communication much like “The Old Internet”, and less about desperate vapid fame-seeking and self-marketing and identity-as-brand, like Web2/3.0.
A lot of me thinks we’re here because corpo-net “disrupted” our forums and blogs away.
IMHO, the commercial-verse can keep its skibidis and hauk-tuas and *“Oh suddenly I’m famous! thanks for the gold kind stranger!”*s
I don’t think it’s cruel elitist “gatekeeping” to say the Fediverse is for anybody! But maybe not for Everybody. (Imagine if major brands discovered everybody moved to the Fediverse, for instance. Yikes.)
BTW it’s 2025 and plenty of people I’ve observed, here in the U.S, still complain that email is “too complicated.” (And no, they weren’t formerly from an uncontacted tribe or rescued from a sealed 1950’s fallout shelter.)
We could make things a bit easier to understand and smoother to experience, but trying to UX-away the requirement for a modicum of intelligence required is not a great end goal, I think.
Yeah this is more my take. The sign up process is already pretty smooth. Sure some of the theory or technicals might be complicated, but is a centralized platform that has secret algorithms to keep you engaged and push content, some of which may or may not be promoted invisibly you can’t always tell – is that really less complicated? /rq
Like if you type in “join lemmy” or “join mastodon” or hell even “join fediverse” in any search engine, the first result is a website briefly describing the concept and giving your some choices of servers to sign up at.
Lemmy’s Rookgaard. After 30 comments, you’re forced to register somewhere else.
That would just turn the fediverse into tiktok/facebook/whatever. The whole point is that you have to engage intentionally here, which prevents you from being served things that other people/countries/companies want you to see.
Its not hard to join here, but its not going to serve up the same experience so people leave. People also follow others, so there aren’t many people on those other platforms suggesting people join them in the fediverse.
I dont understand why anyone cares if the next big social media exodus off-ramp is to the fediverse or not. A huge influx of people that dont like this style of content and how its served to them isn’t going to make this better for those who do.
This is ridiculous gatekeeping.
The point of the fediverse is to get decentralized platforms not in the hands of corporate or government interests.
If you want a cliquey, niche space, then stay on an instance focused for that.
The fediverse allows us to do both. Some instances will go one way, others will go the other. Each can have what they want. And both can communicate if they do wish.
I don’t really understand this seeing as you’re commenting this on a post from your own instance. Therefore, in an ironic sort of way, it seems like people within your own instance are against the fleeting whims of mainstream platforms as well. So, I agree with your counterpart: you are not owed a lower barrier of entry if the entire idea of companies not manipulating your algorithms and selling your data is for it to be community-driven effort. And so, it is not a lot to ask people to learn how things work so they may be able to service themselves, or even past that knowlegde forward.
No matter how you slice it, decentralized networks require a lot of work and maybe, the people who put their computers and hardware out there to make it possible just want people in that circle to appreciate the work put into it. Not hop on their instance because it’s quote, “easy”.
Like, the idea of the internet having been more fun years prior was because it was experimental and community-driven. You will need to sacrifice simplicity and functionality for that. And if you don’t care about that, well, use Reddit, Discord, or any other service that’s easier than this.
I never said they shouldnt come here, I said I dont understand people here wanting them to come. Most of us left those spaces for multiple reasons, one of them being the userbase.
I want those who like what we have here to want to come here, I dont want a bunch of pissed off tiktok refugees who will come in and demand we cater to their increasingly fleeting whims, slowly turning this platform into tiktok or facebook or whatever.
Its okay for communities to not fit every single demographic, and like another person stated, there are many lemmy instances all with their own appeal.
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The internet use to be about discovery, not convinience. The reason big companies like TikTok can exploit people so well is because the barrier of entry is so low and people would rather get their content quick than to have any involvement in how it works. When someone creates a federated community or a server, it’s not plug and play. Work goes into that, so yeah, if you want simplicity, stay on X and Facebook and Insta. If you want control and more clarity about how these protocols work, welcome.
FWIW Pixelfed’s been growing like crazy the last couple days
Source: https://pixelfed.fediverse.observer/dailystats
edit: loops has a much smaller userbase but has also gained active users in the last couple days: https://loops.fediverse.observer/dailystats
Not the first on the app store, unfortunately…
I understand people arguing that a lot of advocacy work is on tiktok, hence it is important; but I really wish good people can advocate on good platforms, instead of monopolistic data-hungry tech oligarchs.
Fediverse fanboys when they realise that their obscure and socially complex software isn’t know by many people specially outside of the tech bubble, and that it’s not the same experiences that they will get with their known platforms:
As someone who isn’t tech savvy I only joined the fediverse when I had no other choice when Apollo shutdown (except of course going back to Reddit)
Heck when I heard talks of lemmy hearing the word servers was enough to spook me out of joining until last minute
I had a point in here somewhere but I’m so tired i lost it so feel free use your imagination
I had a point in here somewhere but I’m so tired i lost it so feel free use your imagination
Fuck I feel this, I have to delete comments halfway through writing them sometimes because I meandered too far from the original point and forgot was I was trying to say
it seems daunting to join Lemmy, and without the catalyst forcing you to you never would have joined, right? and that’s probably going to be the default exp for most normies?
I know. I’m here and I don’t even know what they’re talking about, much less my friends. I suppose it’s Loop? But a quick search in app store brings up nothing
I dunno about iPhone but for Android the loops app isn’t on the app store yet because the whole thing is still in dev. Once you get your invite email there’s a link on the site to download the APK for the app.
I used to think that the perceived complexity of the fediverse was creating a hurdle for more adoption.
Now all these fucking people are learning Chinese to better use RedNote.
Apparently convenience isn’t actually a barrier? I’m baffled why so many people are flocking to anything other than the fediverse.
I think it’s probably marketing more than convenience
I agree. You have to either be in the tech sphere or privacy sphere to know about fediverse apps. Outside of reddit refugees I don’t think anyone using the normal apps know about fediverse options or what that even means to be decentralized. I don’t think it’s really a functionality or convenience issue, we really need our own special interest groups or something to help with fedi app branding and PR. Not sure if that is even something that is crowd sourceble?
It’s marketing, but it’s also the value proposition. Average Joes don’t see the value in decentralization, privacy, or the freedom from corporate control. Although that may change under an authoritarian regime…
Exactly. I think a lot of people just go to whatever is blasted into their eyeballs often enough without a second thought as to the source. I bet with the TikTok news, RedNote probably started paying a bunch of influencers to astroturf and bought a bunch of ad space.
I doubt so many people would be buying nonsense on Temu if it wasn’t buying up every. Single. Unblocked. Ad space. Across everything.
People would be like “WTF is a Temu? I’m not into pokemon. Oh I see. It looks sketchy.”
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Lemmy website is decent for me on mobile and PC alike, what are your complaints?
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id rather learn Mandarin than Linux
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Not everyone who is willing to use redbook is interested in the authoritarian gatekeeping done in the outrage farm known as lemmy.ml
You might be surprised to learn that there are plenty of leftists who aren’t interested in marxist-lenninism at all
Sir we’re all outrage farmers, it’s why we (mostly) left Reddit.
The weird obsessions you and some users have for certain instances that you can block is truly mind boggling
Edit: lmao considering OP went to trouble of making a whole gif to celebrate being banned from .ml, I’d say they also fall into the category of “user being obsessed with another instance”. A very mature and normal thing to do!
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand, what about new users who don’t know any better? Not very fair to them to be instantly subjected to that fire hose and is a bad look as a whole.
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand,
And so is trying to get anyone who disagrees with you to shut up.
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand
I already wrote my thoughts here about this, so I’m not going to re write everything.
I am very much aware about those instances.
What it actually shows, is that neither of you have taken the time to understand why those instances are hated. You’re just following the trend without knowing why
what about new users who don’t know any better?
What about them? They can find out just like any other users have. Hopefully, those new users might do more research on them than you
Not very fair to them to be instantly subjected to that fire hose and is a bad look as a whole.
It’s exactly as bad of a look as any other instance in here. There are trolls everywhere, and you pretending that they’re only there is an outstanding simplification.
You think there aren’t any bigots on .world? What would those poor new users think of .world when they see a racist bigot?
Sorry, but I did have an open mind with them. You’re the one that has a fundamental misunderstanding on the tankies of .ml
Most of their positions isn’t “The ideals of communism is good and should be pursued” which is something I have no issues with
Their positions deny basic facts in support of their beliefs, like China being an authoritarian dictatorship masquerading as a communist country. Or China has in fact led its own genocides or that Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked. Hell they’ve even been known to be on favor of NK.
And when you bring up these basic facts, your comment is removed and you’re probably going to be at minimum banned from the community. They do not engage in good faith. Period.
That is why they are so hated
Edit:
Look at this, not even 20 minutes ago, “JiveTurkey” banned for “bigotry”
how do you get this overview for the bans?
[instance]/modlog
For you it would be lemmy.sdf.org/modlog
Though you can go to any instance modlog to see modlog from any other instance as long as the instances modlog your viewing is federated with the other instance.
For example lemmy.world/modlog does not show hexbear entries because .world is defed’d from hexbear but sdf’s modlog will show hexbear entries
I see, thanks
Sorry, but I did have an open mind with them. You’re the one that has a fundamental misunderstanding on the tankies of .ml
Riiight. I have an alt account on .ml (like you would know if you bothered to read linked my comment, instead of replying to only a chunk of my comment) but I am the one who don’t understand that instance…suuure.
Also, trying to use tankies as an offensive term, immediately shows your true colors and how much you “really had an open mind”. You didn’t and you don’t have an open mind.
Most of their positions isn’t “The ideals of communism is good and should be pursued” which is something I have no issues with
It actually is.
Their positions deny basic facts in support of their beliefs, like China being an authoritarian dictatorship masquerading as a communist country. Or China has in fact led its own genocides or that Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked. Hell they’ve even been known to be on favor of NK.
All of this is false. Just because there are SOME extreme users, it doesn’t mean the whole instance is like that. By the same standard, when I see a Trump meme or with Confederate flags or with transphobic content, I should generalize for the whole instance too, yes?
The examples you provided further show that you didn’t really went to .ml with an open mind. I am not denying those facts, but the way you described them indicate you learned nothing. There are SO many posts already there that address all those examples and how historical revisionism and propaganda helped to muddy the waters. A lot of the things we know about those historical facts (and let’s be honest - we’re not historians. The things we know about those events, are mostly what was told to us and what we quickly scanned on a summary) are somewhat painted in a light that makes them appear more favorable to whoever has interests in the race.
And when you bring up these basic facts, your comment is removed and you’re probably going to be at minimum banned from the community. They do not engage in good faith. Period.
I’ve never had any issues with the mods over there. Whenever I asked questions about ANY of those facts, I’ve always received very calm and detailed answers to those questions. Sometimes I was happy with their replies, sometimes I was not and my mind wasn’t changed.
But certainly I didn’t go in calling everyone a tankie and telling them they’re all just a bunch of insane users who don’t understand as much as you do.
That is why they are so hated
It’s not. It’s because it’s easier and more appealing for users to get on the hate train without actually engaging with different ideas.
Just like so many users do when they go in that community to ask a “gotcha” question that has been addressed thousands of times before and then cry “see? Authoritarian tankies!!” When they get banned for it.
Full honesty here: I too cried like that at first. But it’s precisely because I behaved in a similar way to what I just described. And that is not open mindedness
Edit: to reply to your screenshot: That comment is using a lot of common stereotypes. You think “western” platforms are not censored? Try making a positive post about Palestine on Reddit or on Instagram. I dare you.
I too cried like that at first.
You’re really throwing out every dishonest rhetorical tactic in the book. Reading this exchange is disgusting.
it’s easier and more appealing for users to get on the hate train without actually engaging with different ideas.
absolutely this ive never felt more seen because it really is so much easier that way and people hate on me for it
Riiight. I have an alt account on .ml (like you would know if you bothered to read linked my comment, instead of replying to only a chunk of my comment) but I am the one who don’t understand that instance…suuure.
Oh I did, you mostly just regurgitated the same points. Also, I don’t know why you keep going on and on about having a .ml alt. .ml is in fact federated with .world and .ee (unfortunately) so you don’t need an alt to engage with them. If you’re saying that you have a .ml alt so you get “treated better” over there then that’s a whole problem on its own.
All of this is false. Just because there are SOME extreme users, it doesn’t mean the whole instance is like that. By the same standard, when I see a Trump meme or with Confederate flags or with transphobic content, I should generalize for the whole instance too, yes?
The examples you provided further show that you didn’t really went to .ml with an open mind. I am not denying those facts, but the way you described them indicate you learned nothing. There are SO many posts already there that address all those examples and how historical revisionism and propaganda helped to muddy the waters. A lot of the things we know about those historical facts (and let’s be honest - we’re not historians. The things we know about those events, are mostly what was told to us and what we quickly scanned on a summary) are somewhat painted in a light that makes them appear more favorable to whoever has interests in the race.
“Some” like the fact that the admins and mods are the ones who are on the more extreme end? I don’t deny that .ml has “normal” users, however, it’s quite clear what kind of culture the admins and mods are trying to cultivate.
Nutomic btw is the head dev and main admin of .ml. but there’s no transphobia over there huh?
I’ve never had any issues with the mods over there. Whenever I asked questions about ANY of those facts, I’ve always received very calm and detailed answers to those questions. Sometimes I was happy with their replies, sometimes I was not and my mind wasn’t changed.
But certainly I didn’t go in calling everyone a tankie and telling them they’re all just a bunch of insane users who don’t understand as much as you do.
Ofc not, you’re fitting in quite nicely with the “culture”
I’m waisting my time. You keep ignoring my replies and bringing up new unrelated topics to avoid giving actual answers.
Have it your way. Goodbye
Just like so many users do when they go in that community to ask a “gotcha” question that has been addressed thousands of times before and then cry “see? Authoritarian tankies!!” When they get banned for it.
hahaha this one is for real tho lol
“DAE commermism 100 million people? omg!”
Whu, are you really criticizing op for spending time to make content???
Cirklejerking is nothing new. Dissing on the big heavily moderated instances is just a part of lemmy culture as I understand it. And its not like people on those big instances arent cirkejerking against the haters also.
Here is a mirror. Why are you making a fuss about it? You yourself are free to block any of us if that is your preferred solution.
I am not gonna block them, I am even subscribed to some spaces on .ml .Majority of the users are no different then elsewhere. But i do take the underlying warning seriously and try to pay extra attention to subtle propaganda (which exists on every instance). Encourage people to sign up to smaller less restrictive instances.
I have read your explanation comment btw, and i am gonna be honest it makes no sense in the context of myself. The reason I personally cant relate with tankies is not because they are too left for my comfort but the exact opposite. Compared to my own anarchist ideals tankies lack qualities i deem important and exhibit propertied i recognize as fascist in nature.
If you are now thinking my opinion on what counts as fascist isnt worth any salt to you then you are close to understanding my point. We are still both a part of this community regardless of both our valuable opinions and while yours frustrates me a bit, i hold no ill will against you.
I think individual instance blocking is not as good as defederating.
However, even with my instance defederating ml, hexbear, and grad, I can still see ml lovers who moved to other instances, which is slightly disappointing.
However, even with my instance defederating ml, hexbear, and grad, I can still see people like you, which is slightly disappointing
Not as disappointing as seeing you contributing nothing to the conversation. You just replied to be mean and leave a snarky reply even though I’ve never interacted with you before.
But tell me more about how those other users are trolls…
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Sounds like you have chicken and egg reversed
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Ptime example:
That’s some good humor LMAO.
“I’m protesting American oligarchs and the surveillance state by willingly giving my personal data to Chinese oligarchs and the surveillance state. Lol, get rekt. I am very smart.”
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At least not until they use their influence operations to elect a pro-China president.
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Yeah but why would we be more concerned about Chinese competition than say, the EU? Because China showed who they are in Hong Kong, and we want that to be as un-powerful as possible.
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There was a time when the US was as colonialist as China, but in the 20th century it let the Philippines go, and passed on turning Germany and Japan into colonies, and let the Panama Canal go back to Panama. There’s an analogy to Hong Kong in there somewhere, or with North Korea which remains a totalitarian puppet of China to this day.
The US is far from perfect, but they’re not China. Not even close.
Do Puerto Ricans get represented in US politics yet or do they just not count as a colony because we are in the wrong century?
passed on turning Germany and Japan into colonies
I occasionally see job ads in the UK that require US citizenship.
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Somewhere deep in the CCP…
Senior Operative: “What intelligence have we gleaned from the Americans so far?”
Junior Operative: “I’m beginning to think this well is dry.”
“They love to virtue signal apparently, not sure how that helps us takeover their country though.”
TikTok doesn’t want the data of the average person becaue they aren’t valuable in any way.
TikTok is being blocked because they can manipulate their algorithm to feed influencers to them that push pro-Chinese stances.
Imagine a hypothetical hot war between the US and China where China is telling a significant number of the US population what to think. I specifically say it that way becaue I don’t believe any US company has a significant user base is China.
And because of the potential blackmail stuff I suppose
What pro Chinese stances?
I feel like I already answered that in the last paragraph.
It’s litterally anything that whitewashes anything the CCP does. Maybe it’s justification for island building in the South China Sea, framing international right of way passages through the same body of water as border incursions, trying to reduce support for weapon sales to Taiwain, or trying to reduce allied responses to an invasion of Taiwan. It could also just be spreading general unrest.
Literally never seen any of that on TikTok. Just Americans doing their thing. In fact, you can actually look up content on TikTok that shows, describes and condemns the atrocities at tiananmen square, and their awful behavior towards Taiwan. And any number of things that shows the chinese government as a bad player. If they were in control, you’d think that sort of thing wouldn’t even be available.
It could be that sorta thing, but I think it was the same aim as the “salt typhoon” attack on U.S telecomms corpos.
A majority of the vulnerabilities and data dumps are, yes, worthless, but somewhere there’s dumb U.S officials or people with clearances doom-scrolling TikTok , and their data or meta-data is giving valuable insight into how they can be manipulated, blackmailed, who they’re connected to, whatever.
I do find it kinda funny that that the US gov. Was using “CCP propaganda” as an excuse to ban a platform of expression, and now many of those users have begun using an app that actually has a history of defending the CCP
Apparently some Israeli-Americans went on Red Note to specifically asked Chinese people what they thought of Israel, and users basically said they were “Devil’s on this earth for killing babies” which like…damn. Even through the Great Firewall they aren’t beating the allegations.
So I’m sure the Israeli lobby will get that banned next, we shouldn’t worry.
Its OK, I dont mind lower numbers on fedi. Feels more like The Good Old Days™ of forums. More people, more shit.
At least we don’t have to worry too much about bots or “karma addicted”.
I mostly agree. I do miss some niche communities, though.
