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When the US was having actual discussions of single-payer health care (i.e. the “public option” during Obama’s first term), one major argument against it was “do you really want the government between you and your doctor?!”
Even though insurance companies are literally already between you and your doctor, and they exist purely to extract money from that interaction.
It’s never made sense.
The old arguments were “Look how long they (the socialists) wait to get appointments and get seen!” Yep, we’re there now. I have insurance, I still pay a bunch, and seeing specialists is a luxury at this point. If I have an issue, I don’t even consider calling specialists, because I know it’s weeks til I can get in.
Weeks lol, try months to years round these parts
And then the same party decided to get the government in there too anyways
Ahaha that’s a good point. Tbh despite the nickname “Obamacare” it had slipped my mind that the ACA was the bastardized, castrated version of that whole thing.
They chopped it down to Romneycare
I don’t trust the government, but I trust them a hell of a lot more than insurance companies of all people
You forgot that Clinton tried as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993
during Obama’s first term
Lol this was just about the first thing Clinton tried to get done in 1993. It’s one of the things that led to the creation of Fox News.
It’s never made sense.
It makes perfect sense for the americans who have been conditioned for literal decades to react certain ways to certain things, while being kept ignorant of nice things that exist in the rest of the world.
For instance:
Government-run anything? It is mathematically and physically impossible for it to benefit society. It will, without fail, become a corrupt dumpster fire that furthers evil in our world.
Market-based solution that leans heavily on “personal responsibility?” Well that’s just great I tells ya! It lobs like the best, kindest, and most Christlike solution is to do nothing and let them fend for themselves! They will be stronger for it and will thank us!
You are the product
You dead or without any money left, or both is the product.
… gatekeeping is what they get paid for.
Look at finance! They don’t make anything of actual value, they just bet what’s going to happen to the people that do
“You know what the trouble is, Brucey? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy’s pocket.”
If they did that, then they’d be contributing useful information about which ideas are good. But they don’t even do that anymore; the finance game has been rigged since the bailouts started.
Health insurers don’t contribute information. You don’t need to know what your odds of getting sick are because you’re going to want treatment either way. A choice where the alternative is death isn’t a choice.
Isn’t that investing though? Or is that entirely different?
Companies can do things without investors, but investors can’t do anything without companies.
If I invest in stock on my toilet at home I’m technically helping the company financially, but I’m not actually developing or making things of real economic value. I’m just betting they will and that their numbers will go up.
Oh shit I have a toilet too how do I invest
You make periodic deposits
No way I’m doing that right now
Remember pryimid schemes are illegal. Because they dont sell a product.
They’re not illegal because they don’t sell a product, they’re illegal because they’re impossible to maintain mathematically.
It’s not far off from a Ponzi scheme, honestly. A few people are going to make a lot of money early on and everybody else is going to get rapidly diminishing returns to nothing.
The US should adopt the Dutch healthcare system. You could have medical treatment as an average Joe and also not be bankrupt or up to your tits in debt.
I mean if they picked a random country it probably has a good chance to be twice as good as the US system
yeah, but, like the lines are long
/s
I’m still rooting for Danish healthcare! I don’t know anything about it, nor do I live in California but I’d welcome our new overlords
This is unironically Nixon’s fault.
It’s also unironically Reagan’s fault, as well as both Clinton and FDR.
Prior to FDR doctors and healthcare were run completely not for profit, and part of The New Deal included privatizing hospitals. Nixon did insurance. Reagan and Clinton mostly just took the government further out of healthcare by removing regulations.
Private nonprofit hospitals aren’t even that bad. Its private insurance thats the real problem
I attended an AI/ML training course provided by one of the major cloud providers (it was actually the first one they ever did). In the class were several private hospital executives.
All of them were absolutely giddy about the prospect of using AI to deny care to unprofitable patients.
Well if they are for profit so there’s the problem. All private healthcare companies should be non-profit.
Being non-profit doesn’t make a hospital immune to that sort of greed.
It’s wild how much this contrasts with Australia’s Medicare, like here you can literally just walk into the ER with any issue, show them your Medicare card and get your entire treatment covered for free unless you need any private healthcare, which even then there are rebates and private healthcare competes with public so it’s also moderately affordable.
There were 2 instances where my dad needed to be in hospital for multiple days at a time, once for a broken wrist after slipping at the boat ramp after a fishing trip, and the other was a stingray attack on his leg at that same boat ramp. Both instances didn’t require a single cent exchanged, we just walked in and described the issue, and boom, after a few days he was treated to the extent he could go home and not really worry at all anymore.
Your dad should stay away from that boat ramp…
I vote it be burnt.
Boat Ramps are typically concrete. And partially submerged. Good luck!
You are too weak, cowardly and divided to stop it. That’s why. Organize, grow a pair and empower each other. You must fight as a group or you will continue to be oppressed and exploited.
and manipulated to fight against each other, against your own interests
Capitalism is basically about making as much money as possible with as few products/services as possible. Health insurance is one of the best ways to achieve that.
You forgot the most important part of capitalism which is exploiting labor.
Please don‘t extrapolate from the US healthcare system to insurances in general. Insurances collect money from many so in the case something happens to an individual that individual doesn‘t need take the full financial loss. This makes a lot of sense, because it would very inefficient if everyone would save money in order to pay for a potential cancer treatment. Cancer is rare, but in aggregate it is just small amount each month.
The job of the insurance is to define that monthly amount (which is not trivial to do), collect it, store it and eventually pay it out.
On another note, unless an insurance is mandatory you can usually opt to pay yourself.
Anything critical to the life of an individual citizen, like health and home insurance, should be publicly run. It just doesn’t make sense for a private company to manage that because their profit motive is in direct opposition to the individual (i.e. they must fight claims and inflate premiums to increase revenue).
The state loses money anyway if the person is homeless or destitute so they might as well pay out. Yes there are still agents to manage funds and adjust claims and set rates but they’re now operating as impartial public servants instead of antagonists.
You would think that. But most decent sized companies self insure. That means they figure out how much to hold in savings to cover potential costs. They probably pay someone for that number. The premium is just to pay the insurance company to manage billing. It is basically an administrative fee. That puts them in the position that employers will choose the insurance company that cost them the least, mainly by denying claims. It’s a system designed to extract as much money as possible from the people and pass it on to the largest shareholders (the board of directors).
It’s all a scam and if it doesn’t feel like that yet just you wait!
I just bought a new car. Been driving over twenty years, not a single accident or ticket ever in my life. It was a fucking Toyota Corolla. THEY TRIED TO CHARGE ME MORE A MONTH FOR INSURANCE THAN THE FUCKING CAR PAYMENT!
I was on the phone and I said to geico, you think you deserve a car and a half every fucking month to insure my one car? They told me I would never find a lower rapt that’s what everyone is going to be paying soon.
I found a lower rate… like 10% of what they quoted. Fucking con artists. Every single person that works in insurance should know they are the enemy.
I‘ve heard that car insurance is too expensive in the US, but keep in mind that you are usually not insuring your own car, but everyone else‘s, so if you are causing an accidents the other party can buy a new car for example. An old car (due to the lack of safety systems) is often more likely to end up in car crash than a newer one. In Germany (where insurance prices are much saner) this applies as well. You either get an expensive car and pay less for insurance or an old one and pay more. Also in Germany fees are pooled by model, so if your car is used by a lot young people (who get into accidents more) you also pay more. The good thing is that you can inform yourself about it before you buy a car to factor it into a buying decision from the start.
Sounds like communism to me, son.
You are the product. When your liability outpaces your premium is when they decide to stop covering you.
waiting for a medical group to bypass them and collect premiums directly. if only to end insurance paperwork costs. it is a drag on everyone’s bottom line. aside from price distortions.
A couple of my doctors did that before I left the US in 2021. They stopped accepting insurance and started charging a monthly “membership fee” that would cover a certain number of visits per year.
My parents are part of a clinic exactly like this. I legit thought it might be a scam at first because “how have insurance companies not shut this down?”
It sorta works for kaiser - they administer the insurance and the hospitals. Very convenient for people who both have the insurance and access to their facilities.
Nowhere near as good as a single payer system of course.
I don’t love Kaiser - the prices still suck. But they sometimes suck less, and their system is far more streamlined than I’ve had with other insurance providers. Still ridiculous to be trapped in a system with no control over or transparency into costs.
It would convert nicely enough to a single payer. Granted costs might suck but if they were just absorbed into the system, I wouldn’t really care. I could at least believe they are trying to be efficient. As it is, I’m left believing I get charged as much as they think they can get away with. And wth else am I going to do? Kaiser is much cheaper than my employer’s other option (there are literally 2), and I’ve had the other before. It just sucks (slightly) differently.
I’ve seen it with dentists, they have a membership plan that covers cleanings and certain things which can be useful and affordable if you don’t have access to affordable dental insurance.
I have something like that, sorta. I work for a very tiny company (literally 4 people), and so we couldn’t get a good insurance plan that covered vision and dental because insurance companies suck ass.
So my dentist has a thing where I pay a single price once a year and get 2 cleanings out of the deal. Though anything beyond that is still out of pocket.
Horrible place for a conflict of interest
conflict with insurance interest in taking your money. nurse i know spends 2 hours of insurance documentation for every hour on actual nursing.
I’m not claiming that’s a good thing but I’m fine with my medical provider being incented to provide proper care and to get everything they deserve from my insurance. I would not be fine with them being incented to provide only the care I can afford right now or being incented to maximize how much I’m stuck paying
the calculation i try to do. total insurance payments for a year minus healthcare received equals profits wasted building bigger office buildings and yachts for insurance execs. i’ll bet you a hundred dollars a month your house won’t burn down. or the extended car warranty scams are also same deal. house always wins because people don’t have common sense to save money for ‘rainy days’. schools don’t teach basic finance.
Yeah, I wish health insurance was just “you’ll never pay more than 20k a year on medical bills” or something like that. Let me find my own damn doctor
20k a year? That would be better that what you have now? Sincerly, a non-USAian
Well, most insurance is only for emergencies, and it is priced accordingly. For example, when I drove a car, I didn’t have to deal with my auto insurance plan at all while getting gas or normal maintenance. However, when I got into a few bad accidents, the car insurance was vital for continuing to have a car, and it paid towards helping me get it fixed. Car insurance is insurance against something catastrophic happening to a vital part of life in most of America, not something to use everyday, and is priced accordingly.
Health insurance here is very different from car insurance. Rather than an emergency contingency, health insurance is woven into most healthcare purchases in the U.S. Accordingly, it is very expensive, limiting, and inefficient. Due to the dynamics of the system it creates, Americans must usually pay through the nose for even everyday healthcare without insurance.
If health insurance was operated more like car insurance, except of course that a human life should never be “totaled out,” the system would eventually adjust and normalize.
Are you suggesting routine visits not be covered? That’s how it reads… Do we think less (because it costs) basic preventative care and planning will lead to less catastrophic/etc issues? Or by not covering it are we expecting “competition” to lower the price?
Yes, that’s what I’m suggesting. Keep in mind that in most other countries where insurance has less of a role, these are vastly cheaper than they are here. I expect more people will ultimately go then, especially the uninsured, because prices would no longer be artificially inflated by bureaucracy and for the purposes of negotiation with insurance.
The hard problem, the way I see it, would be taking us from here to there with minimal suffering during such a transition.
We could also go the opposite direction towards single-payer healthcare. That also can be more efficient than what we have if politicians don’t sabotage it, but I am concerned that here, they will, and we’ll end up with something like the U.K. NHS. Therefore, for the U.S. specifically, I don’t see this as a good option due to instability.
What we have now is a compromise that works for nobody.
I get what you’re saying and completely agree the current situation works for no one, but covering routine care is important. Sure, people probably could pay for routine care directly and it would be cheaper but all too many won’t. When it turns into a serious problem that could have been prevented, it’s not just their health affected but cost to the insurer and employer.
I’m pretty sure that 100% coverage of routine care has been proven cheaper than letting the person decide
If you have good insurance, this is absolutely what it can be. My work pays for mine, and the max out-of-pocket is $3.6k/yr. I had already hit my max, then wound up with a $4k ER visit, so it wound up being free. Unfortunately, most insurance is fucking awful unless your company is willing to pay a shitton for some very expensive plan.
They do, but of course it depends on your company offering it.
The combination of “high deductible health plan” (cover everything after $x,000) and a “health savings account” (set aside pretax money, accumulate and invest) really seem like a solid improvement over everything else. If your company offers it. If you can afford to keep at least the full annual deduction in an HSA
That being said I’ve never been able to take advantage so I could easily be wrong. I currently pay for “old fashioned insurance” which really is the way your parents remember it,covers everything, low deductible and copay no out of network nonsense, but oh so expensive. Y’all with crappy insurance can at least applaud not paying premiums I’m stuck with
Pretty much every plan has an annual out of pocket max, and in order to be listed on an exchange it has to be under $9,200 for an individual or $18,400 for a family. Balance billing is also now illegal, so whatever the insurance won’t pay can’t be billed to you. That’s the bare minimum, and it’s already the law.
So if you can find a plan that will cover any doctor you find (even if “out of network”), you can have what you’re looking for. It probably won’t be cheap, but what you’re asking for is in most plans in some way or another.
Pocket linin’ gatekeepin’
