As it turns out it doesn’t actually cost that much on regular transit, there’s an AIRPORT SURCHARGE because it’s an “airport train”.
No wonder Americans don’t use public transit, even when the system exists it’s ridiculously difficult and expensive to use.
Meanwhile here in Germany I can use any bus, tram, U-Bahn, or train (excluding high speed) anywhere in the country for 58€/month
The DeutschlandTicket is the best thing! I love it. I want that with their Steuernummer, baby’s get a DeutschlandTicket. Everybody needs a DeutschlandTicket.
I’ve been wondering why this hasn’t become a thing yet. Probably lobbying from all the Verkehrsverbünde.
No, they really want to keep it as cheap as possible. It’s the Bundesregierung that rather subsidises Diesel privileges and Pendlerpauschalen.
It cost me about £60 for one return rail ticket last week 😭 that’s not including the tube fare to get to the station.
Yep, train tickets are ridiculous here. It kills me on the inside whenever I have to go to London.
Let’s hope nationalisation brings ticket prices down. I was happy to see the South Western is the first to be taken back.
Edit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqg73znzzeo
The government cannot guarantee train tickets will get cheaper under renationalisation, as South Western Railway (SWR) was brought into public ownership on Sunday.
Oh well.
Seeing as government has directly set all ticket prices for the past 5 years, that’s not going to happen.
Rail prices in Britain are set largely to manage demand, as there is significant congestion. If tickets were reduced, too many people would try to travel at peak hours.
It’s also been the philosophy of every government since the 1950s that railways should fund themselves as much as possible, so central funding is lower than elsewhere.
I read on another thread the reason is the companies leasing the rolling stock are charging ridiculously high amounts, so the operators are running on tight margins.
For peak, I get it. But the off peak trains I was on were nowhere near capacity. So lower fares may have encouraged more people to use the train than the coach, which takes longer but is significantly cheaper.
But if you don’t have the D-ticket, good luck figuring out how the local ticketing machine works haha
I want that in the Netherlands as well. Much smaller country, so less value for your money. But now you pay even more (€66) for a return ticket from the east border to the west border (Winterswijk - Scheveningen).
Yeah with the 10 euro ticket.
Why do Americans think everything has to profit?
Because that’s the foundation and definition of capitalism. The market will provide (as long as there’s profit to be made).
Not saying it’s right though.
That’s not the definition or foundation of capitalism, it’s the definition of a market economy.
The foundation of capitalism is a system where investors can pool small amounts of money together on big projects, to share risk and reward. Historically to fund trading ships on their way to the indies.
So it destructures ownership, which has a million ripple effects on the organization and economy.
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. This socioeconomic system has developed historically through several stages and is defined by a number of basic constituent elements: private property, profit motive, capital accumulation, competitive markets, commodification, wage labor, and an emphasis on innovation and economic growth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
In the context of “Why do Americans think everything has to profit?”, then the point is that the train is considered only for the profit it can make, and not for the environmental etc benefits. This is a result of the market economy as you rightly state (and private ownership of transportation).
The foundation of capitalism is private ownership of the means of production. Nothing about it actually requires multiple owners pooling resources, that’s just convenient.
You’re describing corporatism.
Not at all, corporatism is a system where interest groups have a high amount of power : guilds, syndicates, unions, etc…
Capitalism literally refers to pooling capital together from multiple sources to allow shared risk taking and allow for the creation of companies that can get bigger by having more than one owner.
This eventually leads the way for pension funds and multinational corporations whose sole purpose is to extract maximum value for pensioners and billionaires.
Capitalism literally refers to pooling capital together from multiple sources to allow shared risk taking and allow for the creation of companies that can get bigger by having more than one owner.
Sounds way more like corporatism to me. Capitalism is just when the private investors own businesses for profit. Pooling capital from multiple sources and reducing risks are not fundamental properties of capitalism, and are much more representative of Limited Liability Corporations specifically.
Not only must everything profit, it must profit MORE than it did previously. If you make $10 million selling widgets last year, and make $10 million again this year, well that’s a failing business and you should be fired.
If you predict that your business will be up 5% this quarter, and it’s only up 3%, that’s considered a disaster, and the stock price will drop, and that CEO is still in trouble. Repeat every quarter.
I’m not seeing that in the OP
transit fares are regressive taxes
I hear she’s running for governor of California! That would be amazing. Fuck Newsom.
Good grief no…Porter is extremely car-brained. Her first run for office was based entirely on opposing the gas tax. She then went on to support some dumb freeway projects:
That’s some light criticism considering the alternative is flirting with fascists. Newsom had Steve Bannon on the first episode of his podcast.
Newsom is term limited, he ain’t coming back. That’s also the reason he’s turning right IMO, gearing up for a presidential run and thinks hariss’ biggest mistake wasn’t going on right wing podcasts.
You see, we will become the opposition party by moving to the right of the republicans (fox will still call us communists)
Ohhhh I didn’t know that. It certainly explains why he’s taking this turn.
Newsom
I see him angling for senate or a whitehouse run… not succesfully but yeah
Newsom isn’t running for Governor (he is termed out).
Ohhhh. I didn’t know he couldn’t run again. That certainly explains his recent turn. I really like Katie Porter overall though, and wish her luck. I love watching those clips of her grilling CEOs. She seems like a no nonsense type of person. A little car brained is something we can work with.
I’m not a huge fan of Porter. But between her and Kamala fucking Harris, whose big takeaway from the 2024 election seems to be “we didn’t run far enough to the right…”
I’ll admit I don’t know much about her outside of those videos of her grilling CEOs when she was part of the Progressive Caucus. If she’s as pro average citizen as she seems, she’s better than most. What don’t you like about her?
She traveled by airplane to San Francisco – while campaigning against building a HSR system for the state. She also said she lost the CA Senate race because the election was “rigged”. She is not a progressive – just a stupid populist.
Here in Kansas City our transit was free for the past four years.
The downer is that, since we subsidized the public transit here in the city, the various suburbs opted to stop funding the routes that went into their various towns and cities, so now fares are going to be re-introduced.
At least the streetcar is going to remain free here, for now, and likely through 2026 due to the World Cup.
When you have free public transport it ceases to be strictly public transport, and becomes half homeless shelter. No one wants to ride around with people who are all too often drug riddled, mentally ill, and just all around awful to be in an enclosed space with. I have sympathy for and want to help that demographic, but turning public transport into extremely expensive homeless day rooms ain’t it.
Edit: down vote me all you like, free fares is an awful idea. If we want functional and useful public transport in this country we have to have it be safe and clean. I say this as someone who hasn’t owned a personal auto in 12 plus years. I love and use public transport every day. Drug addled assholes are a problem.
Any critique of homeless people gets insta-downvoted unfortunately. The KC transit system, which I like, is rife with homeless people and many of them are visibly maladjusted and the people downvoting you would be instantly afraid of them. I’ve had one try to physically intimidate me, so now I carry a pocket stun-gun everywhere.
In fact, our streetcar is getting armed security guards because of said maladjusted homeless people.
Oh, I know.
That’s partly why I carry a stun-gun everywhere now.
In Toronto, you get free transfers for 2 hours for $3. I can run an errand across the city and come back for a single fixed price.
I’ve never been to Toronto but I’ll be there next week. Parking is a mess where I’m staying near downtown, I may use this!
Parking honestly isn’t terrible but a lot of it is residency based, so yeah it’s harder as a visitor. I think you can get a temporary visitor parking pass at City Hall depending on how long you’re staying for.
For the TTC (titty sea!), download the Presto app ahead of time or buy a Presto card when you get here. Also be sure to check out the PATH!
You picked a lovely time to visit, the weather is wonderful right now! (Aside from the week of rain we just had)
Same in nyc. For $2.9.
I actually lived there for most of my life, NY’s metro does not compare. Only in-station transfers are free, one every 2hr. If you need to transfer from the 2 to the C in Brownsville, godspeed. Half the time it charges you anyways when it’s not supposed to. Don’t get me started on the lack of connection between the G and Atlantic, and the non-existent M loop.
Toronto is still about 50 cents cheaper via the exchange rate. Transit is far more reliable, and the average subway station is waaaaay nicer.
Fuck the MTA
You only get unlimited transfers in NYC until you leave a station. You get 1 reentrance or switch to / from a bus per 2 hours.
it used to 90min for the longest time in sf, like decades. until recently.
Imagine working minimum wage in SF and commuting in by BART + BUS / MUNI Lightrail / CALTRAIN / FERRY. Gotta work at least 2 hours just to cover the costs of your commute every day.
Wait… Employers don’t cover travel cost to and from work in America…?
Where do they cover your commuting costs? I’ve never heard of that.
In Brazil, it’s pretty common for the employer to pay your transit fare to/from work. Often you can receive the same value directly instead if you choose to use another form of transportation.
Here in Paris, half of our transportation fee (carte Navigo, 87€ per month) is paid by the employer.
It’s common in multiple European countries.
but also not common in multiple european countries
Shit bruh, even here in the fucked up USA, plenty of places (in cities, anyway) subsidize commutes. My employer pays for half of my public transport costs.
Nope, very rarely do you see them cover it at all. That’s why we hate our 1+ hour drive commutes.
Wtf? It’s normal in the Netherlands…
Public transport will be the whole second class price. By car it is up to 23 cents per kilometer.
Gosh that would be nice. Unfortunately we are stuck on simpler issues like “do kids deserve to eat at school”, so it’ll probably be a while before we get paid commute time.
No they don’t
Where do employers cover the cost of sommuting?
Lmao.
Pretty rarely, far as I know. I’ve seen some that cover public transit costs at least. It’s more common for them to only reimburse costs for travel during work hours or for business related trips.
Many do: I believe there is a tax incentive for them. I’ve only had it while working downtown, and in a white collar job. So not where you’d usually drive to work and not for hourly pay.
Given that there are very few required benefits, it can be fairly regressive. You don’t get help with transit unless you’re an aid enough. You don’t get better health coverage unless you’re paid enough.
Not in Canada either
Not required. SF does have an ordinance to cover some costs depending on the number of employees. But its not some nationwide law.
If you’re a fancy tech bro in SF all your costs are covered, health/dental/vision/life insurance, commuting stipend or govt subsidized account you get to put pre-tax money in and the company might match, matching contributions for your retirement 401K. The techbro class doesn’t care about the cost of BART, many of them take an UBER for 3-4x the BART faire and not bat and eye at the bill (or use the company UBER account for free). If you’re just some random minimum wage worker, you’d be lucky to live within an hour or two commute of SF and afford housing.
Surprisingly it is a national law, but it’s in the tax code as an optional benefit so it’s usually the better part paying jobs that get it, weirdly enough. Scroll to “commuter benefit)
I was a techbro in sf. I worked from home most days, but when I went to the office, I used Bart and my bicycle. It was great. I hate cars.
And, yes, I got the State to refund me for my monthly Bart pass
They do. You have to apply for it, and there’s a ceiling per month.
There is a significantly reduced fare available. https://www.sfmta.com/fares/clipper-start
Toronto’s UP express checking in. $12.35 from down town to the airport. Sub way in the city is cheap and affordable but that dam airport thing is in its own world.
https://www.upexpress.com/en/about-up/things-are-looking-up
Next topic is toll roads. 407. Full there and back trip during main business hours. 274km = $173.50
It used to be more. Then someone pointed out it was more expensive than a cab from downtown to the airport.
Same in Edinburgh. The buses and trams have a capped fee per day but it doesn’t count if you’re coming from the airport for some reason…
I once went through a BART gate line by mistake, I was trying to get to the trolley service and misread the signage. I immediately exited. The charge: $6.20. Still can’t believe it.
Use cash.
FYI, airport surcharges are very common. Across the bay at Oakland has an airport surcharge. Sydney has them too, which I was happy about because Melbourne doesn’t have a train (AU $25 for a bus ticket, which was sold out) nor did Hobart. I recall AREX in Incheon also having a significant fare jump for the airport stops.
For argument purposes, BART is $0.18/mile (19th Oakland <> Berryessa). That’s still pretty high for regional public transit, which is mostly due to BART’s high farebox recovery. That high recovery is now a problem with the whole pandemic and subsequent slow return of ridership.
London has a expensive express line from Heathrow to the city and a regular underground line that costs a fraction.
Cool. I’ll be in London in a few months. Are the express trains nicer or are they the same sets as the local, but faster?
I didn’t use them, so no idea if they are nicer - but they were quite a bit faster, yes.
Pro tip for London: You can swipe your credit card at the entry and exit points of your underground travels and it will cost you much less then any tourist tickets they sell.
You worried about nice train seats instead of just getting to where you’re going lmao
The Narita Express also costs significantly more than the regular train into Tokyo. Airport trains have to account for travelers with a lot of luggage and thus can carry fewer people than regular trains.
BART trainsets are uniform. No special airport trains.
It has been a long time since I’ve been to Tokyo. Narita trains are nice but I never managed to catch the express. Even so, the local is still really nice. :)
The Sydney airport line uses the exact same rolling stock as the rest of the suburban network (and the airport stations are just stops along the line, not their own dedicated line). The surcharge is just revenue raising because the train is the easiest way to get to the airport, so fuck you, pay up.
But in Sydney you will pay the surcharge only when you get off or on at the actual airport station. Just using that line and passing the airport will cost you nothing extra. Usually less than 4 AUD for the whole trip.
It’s the same situation with BART. The surcharge only applies when using the airport stations. No extra charge if you’re passing by.
Edit the listed fare in the post is nearly 4x the actual fare.
As it turns out it doesn’t actually cost that much on regular transit, there’s an AIRPORT SURCHARGE because it’s an “airport train”.
If she’s not going to an airport (the pictured station is in SF and not SFO) this is just strait up wrong. As a regular BART rider who’s used transbay service for years BART can’t tell what trains you ride. They bill purely on the entry and exit station. I’ve pulled some transfers that on other systems would be wildly expensive to work around occasional systemwide issues without increased cost.
Within SF it costs the fixed Muni rate which is a lot cheaper. It is disturbingly fast and reliable especially as parts of the system date from the Nixon administration. It can be annoying to get to and from though.
Edit: The furthest fare from Oakland (Coliseum) to the station in the photograph (Montgomery) is 5.20. Using the OAK connector does bring it up to 12.65. Going to SFO from Coliseum is 12.10. Going for some reason airport to airport is 19.55. Not sure where she got $16 from.
Even the listed price is cheaper than cabs or car rentals tho. Cabs charge about 3.50 and then 0.55 for every 5th of a mile. So about $35 for 13 miles.
I think the point is that public transport should be cheaper than driving your own car. That’s the only way to encourage adoption.
Unfortunately our country is being run by the cartoon villain from “Who Framed Roger Rabbit?”
Well, you also pay for parking in SF.
And a brand new car is like a 5 to 15 year loan. You have to subtract more than just fuel costs.
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Still should be free.
BART, Muni and others are staring down the gun of drastic cuts right now due to COVID gutting their finances. The feds won’t help and the state is preparing to have the budget gutted by the Trump administration and is looking for things to cut that won’t hurt (these generally don’t exist). I find more expensive programs unlikely right now.
I’m just hoping BART doesn’t collapse at this point
Kind of ironic how the wealthiest nation on earth has all these bankrupt cities and townships.
Kansas City had free busses for 2 months.
And, as usual, the state stepped in.
If it was free, we probably wouldn’t have it because the system would have broken down with no money to fix it.
Just like the roads!
When people say “free” with regards to a public service, they usually take it as understood that maintenance costs should be collectively shared via something like taxes. Better understood as “free at point of usage”.
Yeah, roads are insanely expensive, we’d live in a very different world if they weren’t free to use for everyone in most countries and all the money that wouldn’t have ended up in road maintenance (because usage costs of heavy trucks wouldn’t make them cost effective) went to rail and shipping. And let’s not even count the insane networks of high speed roads that most rich countries built after 1945 that cost trillions of dollars globally.
the big thing is that most roads are paved and regularly maintained these days, medieval britain for example had an absurd density of roads (higher than today) but most of them were just shitty tracks for carts to rumble along. Like back then an actually paved road was kind of on the same level as railways are now, a massive investment that makes things so much better
Some parts of the US have toll roads for most of the major highways
Exactly what I was thinking of when I made that comment. Highway maintenance is paid for, at least in part, through tolls.
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Road maintenance is funded by the people that use them, in the form of tolls, registrations, and gas taxes. Public transport is mostly taxpayers that don’t use it, subsidized by riders. That’s a massive difference.
That’s certainly the theory, but in practice most states don’t actually cover the full cost of roads with use fees and need to get taxpayers to fund most of it.
Public transportation often does better in this regard when you actually look at funding by source.
Additionally the people who have the highest usage, freight shipping, invariably have disproportionate influence on lawmakers and can argue that the fees they see should be proportionally lower than others.
Because gas taxes are paid at the pump, we can’t actually adjust them to exclude low income persons either, making them a regressive tax.Public transportation is able to charge a few dollars per rider per trip. Given the density they can move, they can generate unexpected revenue per trip at lower costs, again due to density. A subway car is more expensive than a car, but also sees higher utilization and holds about 100 times more people on average.
Neither is generally able to afford to be built using only use fees.
In the end, even though I don’t think we should be reliant on cars, the part I’m least upset about is taxpayers funding a public good. Transportation benefits everyone, even if they don’t directly use it. It’s big, it’s expensive, and doing it right has different incentives from making money.
I’d be very curious to see where you pulled those numbers.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-road-taxes-funding/
As for the mass transit data, I just googled the budgets for different major mass transit providers, specifically Chicago, New York, and BART, then looked at the pre-covid funding sources from their public financials.
Assuming those are the numbers you meant. Curious why you found it so implausible that tax money went to road maintenance.
They didn’t say ‘‘not funded by any means’’ they said ‘‘free’’ meaning ‘‘free to ride’’ the upside of free to ride is that it’s accessible to everyone all the time. The funding for public services can come from a lot of different revenue, for instance ad space on the transit, concessions, taxes on luxury items, even state lottery systems.
It’s still probably significantly cheaper than Uber/Lyft.
Yeah, payed $30 to get from the airport to downtown sf a couple days ago, so probably closer to $50 to get all the way to oakland.
There’s a lot of reasons public transport isn’t popular in the US. Where I live the homeless, some of whom are mentally ill, occupy the light rail trains and stations to escape the brutal cold during the winter. My friend’s wife came home crying after finding a turd on a train seat. The cost is $5 for a day pass, far less than a downtown parking spot and it’s not confusing at all though service is sparse
i thinks purposely designed that way, because the auto-companies have killed public transportation in the past, local govt simply never had the motivation to build out the infrastructure. the most famous is LA history.
for bart, it charges by the distance, for muni, they recently up thier fees for tickets, they are also have a budget mismangment issue which causes thier budget problems. they waste twice as much as they bring in through fare evasion fees, and transit fees, last i heard they are cutting some services in the summer. and there has some justification for fare evasion(just dont discuss this on reddit, because its mostly been infiltrated by do-gooders conservatives)
caltrain is a seperate agency than, bart, muni.
the mismangment parts: 1 of the problem is they spent twice as much as they are recouping in transit fees, lik 6+ million hiring inspectors over 2-3 million in fees. visit the reddit subs for more info.
Pretty sure must of us aren’t going anywhere near Reddit. Muni seems a mess from my perspective, but when I visit there from sac the $8 or whatever it is for all day transit seems reasonable to me. Might have the price wrong, last time I was there was Chinese New Year and I rode the cable cars all day which was totally worth the $8. But I might as well be a tourist so I don’t know just how fucked it all is.
oh yea cable car is always more expensive than a single transit ride. pandemic really did a number of people riding the subways, it never fully recover so they have to do everything else to increase the “riders” lost instead of actually attracting more ridership.
like spending and aggressively pursuing fare evaders, spending twice or more than twice in hiring than recouping some fees from them. in reality fares make up less than 20% of thier budget. im guessing federal (washington)wants to see more initiative in justifying thier budget?
Now that trump is in power again, there might not even be money .
Why do you say it’s mismanagement?
My understanding is that ridership still hasn’t returned to pre-pandemic levels and the state and federal funding that was keeping it afloat has dried up.
JFK rail transfer to Jamaica Queens is like… Shit like 8.50? Then you can get on the ‘regular’ subway. It’s way cheaper (and can take about the same time from Manhattan) than using a taxi or an Uber.
So your airport transportation is 8.50 on top of your metro card (34 a week which easily is covered if you are about the city at all).
WAY cheaper using the subway in NYC than owning a vehicle. A month for the metro is 132 for comparison.
