A lot of these are delivered by bike nowadays, no?
Edit: since people keep asking without reading below, I mean specifically in NYC.
there’s no way to make delivery worth it for small items like this, be it by foot / bike / electric scooter / carrier pigeon
Well apparently there is considering it’s a popular service. I’m not sure what you mean by this.
It’s popular because the companies that run it are profiting enough to keep doing it. The actually drivers, however, don’t realize how much they’re being screwed over.
I doubt we’ll ever get data to support this but I suspect most drivers aren’t drivers for very long. A few, who are otherwise entirely unemployable, may stick it out. It sounds like a much better deal than it is, I think most people realize that after a relatively short time.
My experience with doing deliveries was the only people who had been doing it for a while were a: broke as fuck and 2, exactly the opposite of the type of person you might want handling your food.
I did delivery for long term at one point (doordash). Once you reach their highest rating and learn which orders to take/deny, it is actually quite profitable. Still massively exploitative, of course, but at the time I was making $18 an hour (high for my area), and that’s also factoring in breaks and commute. I had a very fuel efficient hybrid which added to the value proposition. I was broke as fuck at the time, but it wasn’t the job’s fault, more the fact that I only worked exactly the amount of hours I needed each month to pay for my basic necessities and rent, and spent the rest with my friends and fiancee.
How about factoring in vehicle wear, tear, insurance, and depreciation? You said “hybrid” so I’m thinking car, not bicycle. And cars are pretty damn pricy per (especially city) mile, hybrid or not. Also regular insurance policies often don’t allow doing such gigs for obvious reasons.
I also don’t know labor laws in the US, but here those companies got in major trouble because even ignoring the exploitative nature of the gig, they were misclassifying employment as “contract work” which allowed them to avoid paying employment taxes, days off, medical pay, insurance, etc. basically displacing all that burden on the State’s social systems. That’s the definition of unsustainable.
It isn’t sustainable. My car takes significantly less damage per mile than a gas only car, and the gas is nearly negligible compared to the pay when you get consistent 40+ mpg. Even then, it’s still not sustainable. I wouldn’t recommend the job to anyone, but if someone was desperate or really set on it, then it should really only be a temporary stop-gap to something more sustainable.
Yeah I think from the people I’ve talked to, it’s mostly people who do it part time as a way to make a bit of extra cash or like students who otherwise don’t have time for a full time job but still need some form of income.
There’s an episode on a Canadian show called Late Bloomer that tells the story of one of those bike food delivery drivers who is an international student and trying to basically survive. Good show, really fucking sad episode.
I drove down doordash for a while. Trust me, every driver knows how much they’re getting screwed. You’ll never be more class-conscious than having 30+ interactions with people as broke as you every day, and seeing every possible angle of fellow working class jobs. You do it for one of several reasons: you want some tiny modicum of control in your life through your schedule, you desperately need the money and it’s easy as fuck to get a delivery job, or you started it for one of those reasons or something similar, got good enough to be ahead of the curve, and it’s now more appealing than finding something else. The last one was where I was at.
I had done the job enough that I was making $18 an hour, well above the average in my area, and despite needing to pay for gas and taxes on a 1099a, it was still more appealing to keep control and flexibility over my life than to do something else. I could take days off whenever I wanted, see friends during the week, and coordinate my schedule with my fiancee easily. You’re very aware that you’re getting screwed, but you choose the devil you know, as they say.
you desperately need the money and it’s easy as fuck to get a delivery job
Ding ding ding.
I don’t hate myself enough to do Doordash (yet), but I’m too fucking autistic to keep any job other than rideshare.
If you don’t have a fuel efficient car, I wouldn’t even consider it. If you do, you need to devote a lot of time to it before it becomes at all worth it (100 orders in last 30 days, good ratings, and above 70% order acceptance rate). Once you’re there, it’s basically as profitable as any other service job, but with the caveat that it’s entirely on you and your executive function to work enough (very boring) hours to pay the bills.
Edit: also, wear and tear on your car is gonna be worth more than the job in any job where you use your personal car for 100% of the work. I would consider any of these jobs a temporary measure.
If you don’t have a fuel efficient car, I wouldn’t even consider it.
I encountered a guy doing DoorDash in a fucking RAM truck the other day. Just couldn’t believe what I was seeing.
It’s popular because the companies that run it are profiting enough to keep doing it.
Is this even true? I thought most of these companies were still in the “chuck VC money into the furnace” phase.
I heard the same. But that was a few years ago. There was a popular DoorDash sub on Reddit that covered all of this stuff. So many drivers complaining about shit there.
The actually drivers, however, don’t realize how much they’re being screwed over.
Stop assuming stupidity because a lower monetary class.
Everyone realizes and knows this, you can’t do anything about it when you’re struggling to feed your family and you just need extra money.
I didn’t say anyone was stupid and I certainly didn’t imply class being an issue…
There’s a reason you assume everyone who’s a delivery driver doesn’t understand the cruelty of our monetary system.
I understand it might not be malicious but you should think on why that assumption is made.
These things for college campuses are great. They take up no more space than a person and can be a huge help when one is busy or sick.
When you’re disabled and cannot leave your home, this kind of stuff becomes a lifeline.
exactly why airport pizza has such an amazing business model, because pizza can be delivered efficiently by aircraft to places up to a couple hundred miles away without relying on non-existant roads or rail
I will order 4 or 5 meals at once and then put them in my fridge to eat over the next week.
Varies. In Oslo Foodora started as bike deliveries; the cyclists unionised and got better pay and working conditions, and nooow it seems to be a lot of Romanians in beaters that don’t look like they’d pass their next EU inspections, don’t pay tolls or for parking, and apparently there seems to be something like trafficking going on.
Well I meant in NYC specifically but that’s interesting.
In a large metropolis, yes. Unfortunately most cities in the USA are spread out so much that you almost need a car to go to the bathroom.
In the EU maybe, where there’s a lot of protected bike lanes and where most drivers are relatively competent (and don’t carry guns).
In SF it’s definitely done by electric moped
I mean in NYC specifically.
no. they are all delivered by car, even if they say it’s by bike.
bikes are too slow for be good for delivery
deleted by creator
Speed is measured differently in the US
yes, miles per hour instead of meters per second
Just fyi, like 99% of food delivery via gig workers in nyc is done via e-bike
Even if done in a car in areas where a e-bike isn’t really feasible, they usually take several orders at at time. I think 1 car picking up and delivering 3 orders is probably slightly more efficient than each person driving to the restaurant.
It should be way more efficient considering they could do a pickup from a restaurant near their last delivery. Play the traveling salesman game decently and you’ll easily beat individuals driving themselves many times over. The driver might also do a pickup job from a restaurant they like and decide to get their own food at the same time.
they usually take several orders at at time
I’d like to see some stats on this. When I see uber eats workers pick up at McDonald’s the orders seem to be singular.
But my anecdotal experience is not usable data.
Sometimes you will get lucky and get a couple of orders from the same restaurant, but it’s usually stop at 2 or 3 different restaurants in the same area, then deliver. Occasionally I would take a single order if the money was good, but usually if I wasn’t taking 3 orders or more at once I wasn’t making enough money for it to be worth it.
It may have changed now, I fortunately got out of doing it a couple of yeas ago. It’s stressful and hard on your vehicle, and the companies you work for are shit. I’m not defending the gig companies as they are now, but in theory having one person deliver to multiple people isn’t a bad idea.
slightly more efficient that each person driving to the restaurant
Of course. But the correct solution here doesn’t require any individuals driving.
Are you implying a solution to delivery? Or that no one should eat (in or out) at restaurants?
Walkable cities
How does that fix food delivery? Are you only supposed to order from the restaurant around the corner?
Probably my personal bias, I have 5 different places I could get food from within 15 minutes walking. Closer to 20 when taking a bike.
When I visited the US I was gobsmacked by literally everything being a 30min walk at least, even in more densely populated areas
I have 5 different places I could get food from within 15 minutes walking.
Right, not exactly a lot of variation. It only really becomes viable once you add the bike back in.
So while a walk-able city is a great idea in general, it does nothing for this particular issue.
It’s quite telling that they didn’t think of walking or cycling
In most places I’ve lived for the past 40 years, I could just walk to the store. I have now four to choose from, all within 10 minutes of walking, and the city center is about an hour away. Ther are also bicycles.
By having groceries, you can make food yourself, at home. You can do this many times, for each time you actually have to get groceries.
As for eating at a restaurant, collective transport ranges from obvious to absolutely necessary, depending on the population density. When my family go out to eat, it’s a lot more convenient to hop on a bus or tram to the city center. It takes half the time, if you consider parking, it’s cheaper, and you can have a drink or two as well. You also get to engage with each other, during transit.
In the less car-retarded world, food delivery is also easier to do with non-car methods.
In any case, and because I know the kind of responses people reply with… Please don’t. I just gave you some examples and a different perspective. Americans are culturally dumb as shit when it comes to considering the obviously better alternatives, in so many different aspects, and I don’t really care all that much.
Thanks for the thought out answer!
You’re welcome. I want to apologize for my snarky tone. More often than not, questions on forums are not asked in good faith. Yours seems to have been.
Cheers man all good. I know a question like that can be charged, but my dumb brain just forgot people live in cities! Of course given the choice, you shouldn’t drive at all.
other countries deliver most things using motorbikes, it always sounded ridiculous to me to use a car to deliver food
OOP has no idea what they’re talking about, in NYC too all food deliveries come by bike, and in the large majority of cases it’s an ebike
Most food deliveries in NYC happen on two wheels.
Nicer in the winter to use a car. And depending on the type of service, these might otherwise be used as personal cars
Your personal car doesn’t make 50 deliveries in a day though, so that equation won’t work out.
?? I’m talking about the delivery people owning those cars and using them as personal cars after work, so they’re not being bought just for deliveries
its also expensive, if you calculate the maintenance /insurance and gas into your vehicles. thats why there isnt more deliveries services for instore shopping outside of a few.
To be fair, most drivers have multiple ongoing deliveries (and space for them). So it’s not quite one car per burrito
I’ve lived several places. In some, I could walk to get food, and I gladly did so. In others, I could not.
Should I have starved?
If your argument is “you should have driven,” then you are depending on cars. Whether it’s the buyer or an employee doing the driving has little effect on how much a car is being used. The environment doesn’t care who’s burning the gas.
That almost makes it a steal, $20 for delivery or $20k + fees (tag, insurance, license, etc) + the cost of the food.
I do get your point though, the shit we have in the US terrible, the are only really walkable places are only in a few overly-expensive areas.
Should I have starved?
I mean I’d say you could’ve cooked yourself and saved many trips by car. But fair enough if we assume you must order food (which is quite uncommon to do on a very regular basis where I live), then sure.
And how do I get the ingredients to cook exactly?
We’re back where we were.
You don’t need 1 car trip for every single meal if you cook yourself. You obviously buy in bulk, usually for a whole week. That’s 6/7 car trips saved.
That’s kinda the whole point of having a car, so you can transport a lot of goods home. At least, that’s the point in my country.
In practice, sometimes you have to improvise, if something goes bad, or you realize you’re missing a key ingredient, or you’re too tired after a hard day etc
Sure. But none of those things happen on a daily basis. At least, they shouldn’t with a modicum of planning. It still saves probably at least half of the trips
Sure. But none of those things happen on a daily basis.
No, but in aggregate they do happen millions of times per day
Well yea but I meant for a single person. In aggregate, it still saves probably at least half of the trips.
You’re not really arguing that getting takeaway and buying food ingredients in bulk is just as bad when it comes to the amount of car trips, right? That seems ludicrous.
in history we learned how most civilizations starved to death until pizza hut started delivering food to people.
before then people would starve as there was no other way to get/prepare food at home.
So did you hunt for your dinner last night?
yes, because the optimal solution is clearly the most extreme counterexample you can imagine
An extreme counterexample is required in response to your extreme mischaracterization of the guy’s argument. I’m just continuing down your logic of exaggerating the argument to the point of being nonsensical. It turns out you only like it when you do it to other people, but not when its done to you.
my point is that a society optimise for an individual ends up being needlessly wasteful and miserable for an individual.
a society were time is so scarse that is in your best interest to have someone barely making a living so you can have overpriced cold meals, because having time to just exist and do groceries and cook is unfeasible.
however a more collectivist and less atomised society you would rarely be in such situation in the first place
You’re right, but that’s wanting something that the guy you’re replying to is powerless to change by himself. Simply arguing against using gig economy delivery services without fixing the underlying cause for why they need to use it doesn’t solve the problem.
he can change it, we all can,
participate in your community, find local mutual aids…
it’ll make you feel much better, less powerless, and make their neighbourhood a much better place to be.
Don’t expect problems to have neat, individually actionable solutions. Most don’t.
But cooking your own food is pretty damn near to being that.
Provided you have time, and the groceries available, and the…
Point is, taking every observation personally is missing the forest from the trees. Objecting to overuse of cars is an objection to a systemic issue (usually insufficientpublic transport), and it won’t be solved by individual action. Responding to it with “Well, I need a car, actually…” is missing the point. Same with delivery: getting into a “well, I can’t walk to food” “well, you should cook”, “well, I …” is missing the point of “there’s a whole mess of traffic that’s both expensive and has been managed without earlier - that’s weird, wonder what changed to cause it?”
…if you think delivery is too expensive, maybe don’t get your food delivered, then? Just a thought.
Delivery is good option for people with limited mobility
been disabled since 2017. pays half my salary. gave up driving last year. not good at those prices. wife grows vegetables in summer.
agreed. Just because something is unsustainable if everyone were to have limited mobility doesn’t mean it’s unsustainable.
Do delivery drivers in NYC really use cars? 🤨
No, or at least not the majority of the time. Big city deliveries are mostly bike, NYC or not
I live in nyc, it’s always delivered by a 2 wheeled vehicle, with the vast majority of those being ebikes
is that a manhattan thing, or does that apply to other boroughs?
I can’t speak for staten island, but it’s true for the rest of the boroughs
How do they deal with large buildings? I assume if there is some kind of door man or reception they just leave it there? I assume they don’t go up elevators? Or do they?
I’m sure it depends to an extent on the buildings, I can’t say how they do it in super ritzy buildings. But when I lived in a lower middle class/working class neighborhood all the apartment buildings just had a row of buzzers at the building entrance with each apartment number on them, and each apartment had a speaker inside it that may or may not work to talk to whoever’s down there, and you go down to pick up your stuff. If you’re really unlucky they can’t hear you reply at all (either from street noise or one of the speakers not working) and you have to race down however many flights of stairs to meet them.
Edit: oh, I forgot you could also buzz them in, but they usually wouldn’t come up the stairs.
They do go up the elevator right to your apartment door. Why wouldn’t they?
I might worry my bike would get stolen. Either I lock it up or I bring it up. Both of which sound kind of inconvenient.
They often lock their bike before coming up. There are poles and gates everywhere
no, most are probably motorbikes, or bicycles. in the west they have the same too. Only instore shopping is all cars.
It was always obvious that the shared delivery model would result in massive delivery fees. Store employees doing deliveries were always at least partially subsidized by sales. Going third party means another company needs to suck more profit out of each delivery.
I don’t get it either. That shit is so much more expensive. Not only are they charging you delivery fees and “convenience” fees, the base prices of what you’re ordering at are also inflated through apps like Doordash and Uber Eats. Something that is only $5 if you went and got it yourself is now $8, plus a delivery fee, plus other fees. And then there is also a chance that the person delivering it is a piece of shit who just steals your food.
And even if your food does show up … it’s cold. Do people just not know that food tastes worse the longer it’s been out of the oven?
Agreed 100%. It takes longer, costs more, and it’s worse. My credit card gives me a premium membership and monthly vouchers and I still don’t order that shit because it still costs more and stuff from the freezer tastes better.
Wife and I can also make better food, which may contribute to my distaste for delivery apps.
Sometimes you need the convenience.
If I have to work late and don’t have time to cook, and my kids need to be in bed in an hour and a half, then I’m going to pay a little extra, and that’s fine.
Not everyone has a wide open schedule every night.
Price is inflated because the platform is charging those fees to the restaurant, so the restaurant just pass these fees off to the customer by setting their prices higher for the apps.
It’s kind of wild how the standard fare of pizza and chinese food delivery was absorbed by gig work. They used to be employees of the restaurant.
Technology should have made restaurant deliverer’s lives easier and increased their efficiency. They should have made more money and worked less.
Instead we got gig workers who are basically impoverished wage slaves. They get no rights and no benefits. What is worse is whatever temporary profits they made have been sucked up by corporations by now.
This is a great case study for how to not use technology and how Tech Bros are not disrupters, they are destructors who profiteer, choke out, and then destroy markets.
that’s what capitalism does to technology.
it isn’t there to improve lives, it’s there to funnel as much capital to shareholders as possible
Not sure about other places but here when you order pizza, it is MUCH cheaper to call the restaurant directly and have them deliver it. It’s usually faster too.
Same, local Chinese places near me still deliver as far as I know.
One chinese restaurant out here still does it I since they had a fleet of cars. But the local pizza joints and all the chains just contract through a delivery service app. It isn’t usually doordash or ubereats, but the driver almost always is anyway.
So these days even the delivery apps are middlemen between the restaurant and the drivers. (They provide the menus and the transaction service and coordinate with all available driver delivery apps.)
Isn’t most delivery in NYC done by bicycle?
Hiring a whole middleman to chauffer your burrito (if you would be able to do it yourself) is unsustainable even if they walked.
Having one person deliver multiple meals to different people in a single trip sounds more sustainable than each individual person making the round trip…
The big cities in India have this thing (tiffin) where the husbands ride the trains in to work and the wives stay at home and make their lunches, which they pack into metal containers and take to the train station later in the morning. Workers gather up all the tinned meals and pack them into giant racks which then ride the trains into the cities, and other workers deliver them. It’s actually pretty efficient and makes use of rail capacity which would be otherwise unused.
And despite the scale of this operation, they never - like never - make a delivery mistake.
If you “think” enough about it everything but living in cave fucking a rock is unsustainable and a result of you being too dumb to do everything yourself.
Bet you lazy bastards don’t even sew your own leathers. You’d rather “trade your surplus income for goods and services.”
Goddamn millennials.
How so? Do ingredients for home cooking just apperate? Should everyone live on a farm with public transit nearby?
Lol no, literally my point. Transporting food wholesale to a centralized place is sustainable and efficient.
And then how does that food get from the centralized wholesale place to your kitchen? Im not just talking out my ass, this is a heavily studied topic.
Yeah that’s interesting. I wouldn’t mind a food bus that drops off food house to house I’m sure that exists in some places and that’s definitely more efficient. Although I’m sure right now the food is the same price and the service costs extra which wouldn’t happen if it came straight from a distro idk.
I was talking about one person bringing one prepared meal for another person.
Is DoorDash etc one meal at a time? Do they really not consolidate orders? I didn’t realize…
Afaik it depends on the situation. If it’s an efficient route and a driver accepts multiple orders from the same restaurant they might be able to take more than one. But in general they don’t restaurant hop, and back in the day when I had friends who did Uber eats, it would have to be a choice by the person to pick up more than one order at a time, so it’s one driver per restaurant per time window of accepting and order and delivering it at least. And that’s probably only assuming you’re in a busy city and not a slower rural area.
I only say it’s unsustainable because after the food you order from the restaurant is made there are now two people in the chain for a meal for one person. That doesn’t square up even before you factor in the cost.
I don’t disagree that it’s stupid but my problem is the stacking - Delivery fee and Service fee? The service is delivery! Why are they two fees? Either the cost of the delivery is being itemized in real time ($1.99 for gas, the rest for the human) or the delivery isn’t $1.99! If the cost to deliver an item is $20 and I make $50/hr working a project, maybe having food delivered makes sense.
But also, I know the delivery guy isn’t making all that and he’s delivering five orders so don’t charge me a service fee when I’m already subsidizing you paying him a shit wage.
Everything is shitty either way.
It’s so they can give “free delivery” and still charge a butt load of fees.
The service is delivery!
I read this and thought, “no, the service is that they were able to put pants on and leave their house today, unlike you.”
Please dont take that as a personal attack, I’m just sharing intrusive thoughts when they make me giggle
I use them fairly often because I’m just too fucking busy during the week. I have to get up at 5am to get ready for work, am too busy to take a real lunch break, and get home around 8-9 most nights. And that’s on nights I don’t have meetings (I work in municipal government, and public meetings like Council, P&Z, BOA, etc all meet at nights). We could hire more people, but that would require more income, and that requires council members to vote on raising their own property taxes, not to mention state law regarding tax increases.
Yeah, I could meal prep on the weekend, but that’s essentially allowing work to intrude on my weekends, and fuck that.
I’m essentially buying more time to relax in the very little relaxation time I have available.
How else can they get people to sign up for a $15/month subscription that gives "free delivery " while charging a fuckton for a delivery service?
Delivery fee and Service fee? The service is delivery!
No, the service fee is either charged by the payment provider (or at least to offset the fee the payment provider charges). Has nothing to do with delivery (you also have to pay it when you pre-pay for takeout online)
Visa and Mastercard processing fee is slightly less than 2% of a total operation. Who takes the rest?
In the US it’s generally 2.5% - 3.5% (plus a bunch of BS fees and charges added on top).
I don’t know what payment service was used here. It is only around 2-3% on my invoices.
edit: Seems in the US a bunch of other stuff (like cost of running a website, insurance) can be included in the service fee.
2-3% is insane. It boggles my mind how it became accepted to pay almost everything with a credit card in america.
I’m not American but I got one with my bank account a few years back and I do use it a lot. It makes online payments super convenient. And with offline shopping it’s the vendors that eat the fee, so also no downside for the consumer (though I tend to use the debit card for that).
Which is the whole point. They chauferring you a burrito, and make you pay for their insurance.
Sure I guess.
But my point was that the delivery is not the service here. In fact the service fee is basically every BUT the delivery.
“I have to order Doordash because I live in a food desert”
“Can you taxi to the grocery store and back for about the same as the delivery fee?”
“No”
I use doordash because I’m tired AF and it’s 9pm (stores are closed) and there is nothing in the fridge.
Paying an extra 10 bucks to get food delivered while I can relax for 30m an drink a beer is priceless.
That’s the definition of luxury and discretionary spending
I used it when I was working 100 hour weeks and wanted to spend every hour after 9 pm too stoned and drunk to move. It was an expensive luxury, but also the one maintaining me at the stress level where I wouldn’t want to kill myself. I’d order enough to split over multiple days so it wasn’t as obscene.
Been there… Working like that with right…
But yeah when you are in that situation, food out is the least of your concern when you can have a metal break down at any point.
Cooking for your self is can be seen a luxury too nowadays I guess… Look at that peasant with all that free time to cook!
I don’t care.
edit: seriously, the shame you people feel is pathetic. I don’t need you to confess or explain your takeout life to me ffs. I guess you just need people to tell you your decisions are OK. Man the fuck up
People can’t follow a conversation for one fucking second I swear
telling american pleb he should check his consumption habit… might as well called his mum a whore lol
We call our moms whores here, not our mums.
This cuts both ways actually. you can have 10 guys going through a drive thru or one 1 making 10 stops. The one guy making ten stops results in less traffic and fewer emissions.
Does that happen in a meaningful amount? Drivers getting multiple orders for the same place with close by destinations? I think it’s vastly more common that you just have 10 drivers at different locations on behalf of 10 customers.
I do a lot of DD, and I’d bet that 75%+ of my restaurant orders are a single order going to a single house. I prefer grocery delivery, and it’s probably closer to 50% for those, as we often get a couple of orders at once.
Occasionally we get a single drop off with 2 stops (pick up food from a restaurant and something from a drug or grocery store, and drop them both off together).
I’ve never gotten more than 3 orders at once, and those are pretty rare.
At best it’s 2-3…
That comment is a cope
Afaict it’s 22$, you tipped 8$. That’s a pretty wide margin.
Regardless, still too much, I just pick stuff up with my bicycle when I can.
Also, $8 is tax and not part of getting it chauffeured to you, also the point still stands I never get food delivered it’s always worse than collecting it yourself.
