Are the whales the ones complaining? Because the whole concept of a whale is that they are the exception. The vast majority of players pay only the minimum amount or slightly more, but the whales dump so much money in that they are still worth more to the devs than the other 99% of players combined.
You’re right. The definition of a whale includes that he has enough money to not complain about any price at all.
Except complaining is his kink… Then he gets double the satisfaction from his payments.
A whale doesn’t need enough money not to complain. The tactics used to attract whales are meant to build or take advantage of addictions. When I was drinking I would regularly complain about the cost of alcohol yet still spend much more than I could afford on it
Whales aren’t people who can afford whatever, so they spend whatever. Whales are people invested enough that the perceived value added is more than the money it costs. Most whales, therefore, are regular people who are addicted to the game rather than moneybags who could easily afford it. So yeah, it does smell of victim blaming. We should be calling out the bad business practice, rather than calling out those being victimized by the bad business practice.
Or the whale is German, because complaining is a national past time.
“price gouge me harder, Daddy!”
buys shit
violently orgasms
You know who look like whales? Problem spenders who spend far beyond their means, and are preyed upon by predatory business practices that use psychological manipulation to encourage people to spend as much as as they can. Like, I’ve literally watched video game developer conference talks where a dev explains in great detail and depth on how to hijack human psychology to milk every last dollar they can. Whales stopped being “those who can afford to spend” a long time ago.
I’ve seen whales complain. Maybe not whales, but people who pay for skins and random bullshit
It’s the same as how most airlines operate. The first and business class sections make up the majority of the profit, even though they are just a small fraction of the passengers.
The whales wouldn’t complain about this one anyways. When this mount was available in-game on the auction house it was probably around 5x the price in USD assuming you bought wow tokens.
I think it’s mostly the parents of whales who are complaining.
In FFXIV, most multi people mounts are paid for, but they did have an event where they have one that can hold 4 people. There is a paid mount that holds 8 people, and it’s a whale. It’s the most expensive mount at just $42. There is no reason you should want to carry 8 people because everyone should have a mount.
I started boycotting all paid digital subscription services when World of Warcraft came out.
So to me; you’re the problem. Anyone who isn’t boycotting all paid digital subscription services is the problem.
Subscription fees for frequently updated MMOs aren’t unreasonable. I refuse to pay them, but I don’t begrudge their existence. MTX on top of that are another matter - that shit should only exist in F2P MMOs.
Wtf are you talking about? The user you’re responding to is just clarifying the term “whale”.
If you ignore what else they say:
The vast majority of players pay only the minimum amount or slightly more,
Of course they’re making this claim because that’s what they do. Listen: BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT - stop funding things you don’t want to see in this world. Stop funding things you don’t want to reward.
If you do reward these actions (such as new subscription model services), or you’re justifying them in online commentary (as the comment I replied to was, as you are) then you have no right to complain about them - because they were funded by you.
It’s like paying the minimum on a Kickstarter for killing kittens, then commenting “Yes, but it’s really the whales funding it”.
Not if you’re all funding it too. That still counts as funding it! STOP LYING TO YOURSELF!
You’re raging against a discussion on nomenclature and blaming anyone that responds to you for your off-topic crusade. Maybe take a moment think about that.
Weird take but more power to you my friend
Remember the Boycott for Call of Duty? And most of them were playing on Day 1.
At this time I’d like to shill for Warframe.
The game is free. The battlepasses are free. The lootboxes are free. The ways you open those lootboxes are also free. The premium currency is a tradable item, so it is 100% viable to get it and buy premium shit without ever spending real money. Digital Extremes (the devs) once accidentally created a gambling machine (for pet cosmetics), and upon discovering what they did, removed it from the game and refunded everyone who spent money on it.
Warframe is the one game that I’ve spent more money on than any other game, I’m not biased, you’re biased.
EDIT: I’m glad that people around here like warframe.
EvE is similar but with a functional economy including scammers, thieves and general douchebags… And spaceships, is pretty fun but extremely addicting and technical.
The problem with Eve is that you will have to join a big group to enjoy it, and if you join one up, you are increasingly going to feel the pressure to whale if you are a normal player who isn’t min-maxing the system. The game is chock full of whales.
I’m a miner, my father was a miner, my mother’s a miner, my father’s father was a miner.
Yeah some pressure you sure but I just stayed with newbie guilds and turned to helping people instead.
Honestly some of the technically non combat classes are quite fun. It’s been awhile since I’ve been on but I have more money than I could honestly figure out what to do with just from mining.
That said yeah even mining has spreadsheets, which is both neat and kinda daunting.
The people who are most successful don’t just stick to one defined job, they min-max to the extreme. They can be taking down freighters with their multiboxed destroyers one day, and they can be multibox moon mining with orcas the following day.
I don’t believe there is anything fun about mining. It’s just an activity that when you believe you’ve sufficiently secured yourself enough you can do with relative minimal investment in it. Usually the people who mine the most aren’t enjoying Eve, they are enjoying the conversations and the Netflix they are watching on the side. About the only thing tickling the dopamine with mining is getting to think you are getting ahead from doing a comparatively less stressful activity for longer than other people doing riskier activities more prone to failure and doing so for less amount of time, allowing you to fantasize about how you will spend your gains in the future. Mining barely has any user involvement as a game mechanic in Eve, there are idle games with more user interaction.
Ok that’s a very good argument as to why you hate mining. It’s not however a good excuse for anyone else to not like it.
Do what you please, don’t be an elitist, it’s one why people don’t even try to play. Similarly you say there’s no engagement but people presumably like you tend to heckle and try to murder miners because they “aren’t playing the game” though most of the resources in the game are available solely because they’d been mined, no miners no resources… You know like an economy.
You’ve suddenly brought up “hate mining” and “elitist” out of nowhere, when all I did was make observations about the activity. It is not inherently fun IMO. You also bring out “no engagement”, which is another gross exaggeration of minimal engagement. And if you think the gankers aren’t mining, you really haven’t gotten out of your solar system to explore. You seem to be stuck within the bubble even within the game, and you will be socially manipulated for it.
I haven’t played Eve in years, and have only “ganked” in a few minor instances and enough to realize that it also wasn’t a fun mechanic, it was just exploiting the uninformed and the careless within the statistics, and it didn’t so much require effort or skill so much as preparation. There’s also quite a bit of a similarity between the dopamine hook the people who gank have to the people who mine, although there’s a lot more sadism as well.
I don’t believe there is anything fun about mining. It’s just an activity that when you believe you’ve sufficiently secured yourself enough you can do with relative minimal investment in it. Usually the people who mine the most aren’t enjoying Eve, they are enjoying the conversations and the Netflix they are watching on the side. About the only thing tickling the dopamine with mining is getting to think you are getting ahead from doing a comparatively less stressful activity for longer than other people doing riskier activities more prone to failure and doing so for less amount of time, allowing you to fantasize about how you will spend your gains in the future. Mining barely has any user involvement as a game mechanic in Eve, there are idle games with more user interaction.
I think that is pretty self explanatory.
And if you think the gankers aren’t mining, you really haven’t gotten out of your solar system to explore. You seem to be stuck within the bubble even within the game, and you will be socially manipulated for it.
Not at all, that said the vast majority is done by contracted mining corps. If the mining corps shut down today within 3 months the game would be entirely different and mining would be a necessity for all but the ultra rich. Similarly aren’t you in a socially manipulated bubble as well? You’re spouting literal in-game billboard propaganda.
So gankers also aren’t playing correctly to you, what exactly is the point of the game again according to you? Who’s playing right enough for you?
I miss having time to play Eve - big fleet battles were fucking epic but I can’t dedicate the hours anymore.
Yes I’m aware there are ways to have quicker fun, I remember faction warfare, but that’s even hard to do when you have to drop at a moments notice (kids don’t pause well).
Yeah no matter what you do in it is a major investment in time.
man do I wish I was smart enough to play EVE.
S Tier game
Don’t look at my steam hours
Wait, what was that about the pet cosmetics? I must’ve been on hiatus when that went down.
At the time, changing the colors and patterns of the fur of your kitty and doggo were tied to a randomized drop, which there was a roundabout way to just buy chances for. Some dude spend literally thousands of dollars just to get his doggo to look the way he wanted.
Oh shit… that explains the weird-ass pallettes for pets, I guess.
Damn.
Just past week restarted the game and I love finding random Tenno in these comments. Hadn’t played for a year or more and it’s still going strong with exciting new content free for everyone to play. If you’re bored of the loot-n-shoot part you can go fishing, decorating, trading, horseriding and whatever else is in the game.
Also love to look for streamers starting fresh and reliving the awe of the game through them.
I love warframe, but having to level every piece of gear up fills my brain with anxiety for some reason so I can’t play it much. The combat loop is pure happy chemical.
there’s so much that you can focus mostly on just gear you’re interested in. mastering %100 of everything is just not a thing that is reasonable unless you want to sink all of your time forever. It also gets easier to start leveling new gear as you progress.
I come back every year or so and play for a month or two each time, still haven’t spent money on it (but starting to think I should, to support the devs)
DE absolutely rules. In an era of constant enshittification, it’s so nice to have a dev that is actively, constantly working to improve the player experience. From consistent bug fixes and engine optimizations, to little additions like reworks of old frames and new ways to interact with old content, to the massive story expansions like Whispers in the Walls and the upcoming 1999, it’s just a great time to be a Warframe player.
remember when coptering was a thing and instead of just patching that bug they implemented a whole new movement system which includes bullet jumping? yeah, another dev would have just patched it out and give a middle finger to everyone who grew accustomed to that level of mobility.
100000% with you. Warframe and DE are amazing.
WF isn’t pay to win.
Its pay to look fly.
I was playing the first descendant. They had free armor dye giveaways.
- can’t use them unless you can a skin
- when you do use it then it’s gone. Stuck on that character AND skin…
Fuck that game right there.
Color packs cost like $2.50 for a paintjob in TFD and that’s like 5 colors.
Warframe has color themes with a full set of things like camo, smoke or sky. You unlock the pallete and you can reuse it everywhere in your account.
looking kickass does measurably increase my enjoyment with the game
It’s just so difficult ro get back into it, I didn’t play for about 4 years because I got tired of playing on Ps4. Tried playing again when I could transfer my save to pc, but didn’t even know where to start again. There is too much to do, and little to no guidance.
That is the tough part. I’m the sherpa for my friend group, I’ll answer questions to the best of my ability until I either pass out or get too drukn to continue, if you feel so inclined to ask.
Hate to say this, but just restart. They revamped the “new player” experience and imo does a decent job of telling you where to go and getting you started. Once you get your bearing again, you might want to reclaim your old account or just stay where you are.
if it’s been long enough, the game will just make you do the new player experience all over again even if you’re playing on an old account. Happened to me when I took a hiatus a while back.
Yeah, I considered restarting, but I really don’t want to start from scratch. If I have to start from zero I’d rather not play at all.
The biggest reason of why I struggle to get into any of the subscription-based games, because none of them are only subscription based, they charge you both for the game and the subscription afterward so you have both the price of the game plus any type of expansion packs plus the subscription cost monthly afterward and that’s without including any of the microtransactions. I don’t know why anyone plays them
Can’t understand people who spend hundreds of dollars on virtual shit they don’t even own, just a “licence” to rent it. Like how do you spend that much with almost nothing to show for it.
Me after realizing it’s me with American Truck Simulator, buying all those DLC and truck packs.
Was going say your right how stupid, then dawned on me I have done this…😭
The truck packs maybe but most dlc is map expansions which I don’t see as equivalent
Yeah mostly what I buy when they are released, but with each new release they new job packs. That allows for new delivering.
Personally, I see a difference between paying for extra content vs paying to access content that is already a part of the game.
The question of whether it’s abusive is then dependent on the pricing of the base game and DLC, and how much content there is in each.
I’m even ok with games that are clearly designed to have DLC or released as multi episodes. As long as the base game is fine without the DLC, priced fairly based on the content, I don’t see a problem with it.
Like Paradox games, I’ve gotten some DLC in bundles and ignored others but still have a lot of hours in each title I’ve played. Though the way they show placeholders for the missing content is a bit iffy. But they’ve also integrated some DLC into the base game once they’ve decided that it’s become too essential (or too difficult to maintain balance through each variant possible).
But if it’s a game where you pay AAA prices for a skeleton of a game that then requires DLC to be purchased otherwise the game sucks, fuck that. Same with early access games that add DLC before the base game is finished (that isn’t just things like soundtracks or art that functions as tip jars without any in game effect). Those are just money grabs and there’s a good chance that they still suck even if you do spend the extra money.
It’s no different than spending thousands on travel or hundreds to watch movies at the theater. You’re paying for the experience and entertainment, not something physical.
Isn’t that literally everyone who owns digital games? All your shit on Steam is a license to use the software, you don’t actually own any of those games.
I mean, I get the point, cosmetics and such and anything virtual is not tangible in the real world but let’s not pretend we aren’t all doing that with every game we spend money on.
Having said that, the amount of money companies charge for some of this stuff is outrageous. Luckily, nobody is pointing a gun to your head forcing you to buy it!
I’m not disagreeing. But there is a difference.
Steam servers shutting down doesn’t mean you lose everything. You can backup your games and play offline. You still have the things you purchased.
MMOs shutting down and your virtual house and pet disappears, forever. Even if you spin up a instance of that MMO, your account doesn’t belong to you and you’ll have to start/recreate your character from scratch. Granted, you own the server so you could give yourself everything and be god. But then you still paid a lot of money for literally nothing.
Does paying for a ticket to go to an amusement park or the movies or whatever mean that you wasted money on nothing? Just because you don’t permanently own something doesn’t mean you paid for literally nothing. You paid for the experience. The good times you have over the years playing a game you loved.
I mean yeah, I’m sure losing everything when the servers shut down would fucking suck, but that doesn’t invalidate the time you’ve experienced up to that point.
I don’t have the money to throw at games like that, but I do understand it.
Ultimatelly it boils down to whether people have spent the money to have something or to use/enjoy something.
Which is probably why most people who disagree with selling of items, mounts, armor and so on, don’t find it problematic when what is being sold is access to game areas: the former are things (even if virtual) and people tend to treat them as something which they have, whilst the latter is just access to new experiences, like buying a ticket in a carnival to go on a Ferris Wheel, and is thus not something people tend to feel like they own it.
So yeah, the problem is the preying on people’s instincts around ownership versus mere rental - in their stores these things are invariably framed as being a purchase (buy! buy! buy!), not something you are purchasing temporary access to - on things whose mere existence depends on the whims of a company and which can be taken away at any time.
Mind you, in the Age Of Enshittification this kind of scam has extended to even hardware which is powered by software that requires access to 3rd party servers.
I don’t think the issue is the word “buy”, but rather clarity on what you’re buying. Amusement parks use the word buy, but I don’t think anybody is confused that what you’re buying isn’t the whole Ferris Wheel, it’s a ticket that gives you permission to ride the Ferris Wheel. Meanwhile games tell you you’re buying a mount, when what you’re actually buying is a license that gives you access to a mount.
Yeah, the word “buy” in this is just one element of a broader pattern, and whilst per-se it isn’t sufficient to distinguish between acquiring a thing or getting access to a thing, in these cases of mounts, armor and so on being sold in games, the entire framing wording and even store structure around it tends to lead people towards concluding that the meaning of it is for “acquiring a thing” not for “getting access to a thing”, especially because in the absence of domain specific clarification (an absence I believe is entirely purposeful) people who aren’t intellectual property lawyers and fully informed of the subject matter will tend to for virtual goods use the same logic to deduce the full meaning as they would for equivalent goods in other domains, specifically physical goods.
This is why also in the physical world legislation forces some kinds of business transactions with consumers to explicitly use the words “rental” or “lease” in order to make clear the nature of the transaction but might not have any such requirements for business to business transactions because businesses are assumed to have the capability to assess the full contract.
I’m so happy I don’t give a fuck about looking cool or having nice effects in a game.
The only one I ever spend more bucks than I had to is Path of Exile. And the supporter packs give you your whole worth of money spend as premium currency plus you get the usual skins, emotes and tracking tools.
I totally feel that I’m okay with buying functional stuff like inventory space if the system itself feels fair.
In 10 years and around 5000h (only game I play except tarkov for a while) in I spend 122€ so a mount for 90 bucks seems crazy.
People who think that way are dumb
But when I sometimes think that way it’s cool
Logic
The only time I have ever paid for any kind of MTX was for Tribes: Ascend. I bought the cheapest amount of paid for currency (which was $5) just for the permanent VIP status it conferred, which doubled your XP gain to unlock weapons and shit (back before they completely restructured the game and that wasn’t necessary anymore).
I think I ended up using the currency it gave me to buy one of the original Tribes 2 voice sets because it had the most annoying, ear-splitting version of the “Shazbot!” line and I would spam the shit outta it.
Never again. Even if I like the game, like I did with Ascend. I especially won’t do it with anything Hi-Rez makes.
I’m glad I’ve always looked down on people who spend money to buy shit in games. If something is only available by paying for it, anyone that I notice showing one off in game gets a “tool” label rather than “cool”.
Which is kind funny because if the game was a bit less abusive and had a way to get that item without paying, that negative reaction wouldn’t be so strong because it would be ambiguous. Did this person play the game and get rewarded with that item or did they just throw money at it and get handed it? Can’t be sure, so anyone that has it isn’t automatically a tool.
And progression MTX are even dumber. It’s like paying money so you don’t have to play the game.
Though the overall quality of the game can play a role, plus whether the items are purely cosmetic vs give in game benefits (aka P2W). If the game is amazing, having some microtransactions doesn’t bother me. Like when I pirated games, I had a threshold where if a game was better than that threshold, I’d buy a copy of the game because I wanted the devs to have money. Some MTX are like that, basically a tip jar for a great game.
But if the game isn’t great, it’s more like seeing an expectation to tip when you don’t think a tip is warranted.
I’ve completely stopped playing MMOs, but there is a difference when it’s an online service. What I consider absurd are the publishers and developers who close down their MMOs when they still have players who have invested and will invest money into it, without even considering selling it off. I’m looking at you, NCSoft. Almost happened to Spiral Knights, and because it didn’t, it’s still going. It’s like they think that people playing them are players that would otherwise playing their new MMOs, when the reality is they avoid those publishers that don’t respect their persistence and investment.
There’s also a lot of MMO’s with no subscription and plenty of whaling. But cosmetics are cosmetics, there’s people that can legitimately complain about a $90 dollar mount if it gives an unfair advantage when they would otherwise not mind paying for just cosmetics. But there are people who don’t mind unfair advantages in certain games either, as long as they have a F2P model and the devs have a good rep.
Nowadays, what drives me off is the feeling of never getting the full experience, having to constantly feel that way to avoid getting caught in predatory addiction loops they implement, and just being able to buy a full, self-contained experience for what would otherwise be two months of subscription in an MMO.
The difference mostly is that the old games were games built first and microtransactions second. Slowly creeping up the invasive methods. Which is acceptable for most people.
However new games have a fully fledged out microtransaction system and shop and the whole game is built around maximising profits. Just like mobile games are.
It is rare that when you put the money first you will produce a game that is fun. And definitely not possible to make a good one.
I have the strangest hunch that if a large MMO or game with lootboxes decided to make every item available via unlocks for free but make them all immediately buyable now, they’d have a nice business model. The player isn’t buying exclusivity or an advantage, they’re buying convenience.
Warframe heard that
deleted by creator
The Past “We made this game, and if you like it and want to support further development, we have these small DLC bundles, some skins or what not… Nothing fancy, but we wanna work on new maps to keep the game alive. There’s no obligation, the maps will be provided free of charge, we’re just happy the playerbase is so enthused”
Now “We’ve made a new venue for buying skins, the marketing people call it a game? Look whatever, oh and while some of these skins look unremarkable, remember they’re only available for a limited time and those will cost 30% more than normal, but if you don’t buy it you’ll regret it forever when we take it away, either forever or until the GOTY edition.”
(Seriously: Ban FOMO)
Seriously it has gotten to the point where games are so content bare that people are talking about the DLC before the main game’s out.
Mortal Kombat 1 made that mistake so hard it had to start giving skins away to try to goad me into playing it again. Great story, terrible gameplay… weirdly the opposite of Mortal Kombat 11… (Maybe it’ll help if your big DLC expansion wasn’t 2 characters that are literally just genderflipped recolors… How weird is that Cyrax and Sektor are female now. I mean, normally that’s fine whatever, but in the context that Liu Kang created this universe to be his ideal, did he just have a Rule 63 kink for Cyber Ninjas or something? Or did turning the Transhumanists into Transgenders seem like too hilarious a pun for him?)
“I can’t afford this”
*pull out credit card*
Most people who vote with their wallets have long since stopped playing.
I vote with my wallet by buying indie games or old discounted single player AAA games. This also means I can game on a crappy machine. Being a retrogamer also helps. I literally have more games to play than time to live.
Whales are the idiots who keep the Madden games alive.
I want to see them come out with a literal flying whale mount for $999 and see who buys it.
I’m sure that would cause a significant portion of the playerbase to react with angry and hurtful messages. Then poor Blizzard would have no choice but to wipe their tears with their massive new pile of hundred dollar bills.
In ESO that would be lore-accurate
The problem with this mount (beside the cost in the first place) is it provides exclusive functionality otherwise not available.
It provides portable access to the in game auction house and mailbox.
Wow I didn’t know that so it’s a 90$ cosmetic plus pay to win. Ridiculous.
Don’t engineers have a portable AH?
Nope. If they did, the engineering vendor bots all have long cool downs.
I did a bit of looking online, to see if there was an AH bot.
Apparently there used to be a similar mount with the AH, but no mailbox and for 5mil gold. It was removed from the vendor years ago. Anyone who got it then, supposedly still does.
This $90 new mount is defiantly unique to game. To top it off, some of the sentiment around the original was “I didn’t use it as much as I thought I would.”
Acquaintance of mine just dgaf. He’ll get banned on a game for cheating and just spend another 60.- to get another copy. DLCs, micro transactions, pay to win, doesn’t matter. He’s a cancer on the whole industry.
Disgraceful behavior…
Right my Sims? looks to how horribly her game is glitching up due to owning more expansions than Maxis ever intended for Sims 4 to actually have
But for real, the idea of an MMO still requiring a monthly fee in 2024 is ridiculous.
in 1998 when it was a new concept and a lot of money had to go into maintaining the sheer volume of people using servers at a time when the internet couldn’t handle more than 20 Star Trek fanboys at once without using up all the bandwith, sure. I could see that.
But in 2024 where even small Indie studios can afford regular free content updates and still make a profit from word of mouth game sales? Yeaaah no.
I remember the first big MMORPG that was on the internet: Ultima Online. I wanted to play it back in the day, but I couldn’t because I was far too young to have my own credit card to pay (and my dad was quite firmly not going to pay) and in the very late 90s, at least where I lived, the internet was still a pay-as-you-play affair, meaning every second you spent was logged and charged on your next phone bill. Sometime around 2000 or very early 2001 the internet got some plans by the company that had us pay a single fixed fee, so I could remain online as long as I wanted without worrying about a skyrocketting bill.
I’m confused, is this a serious take? How they make their money leads to how the game is designed and who for. If it’s advertising it’s shit. If it’s microtransactions it becomes about min-maxing annoyance for most gamers while attracting whales, gambling and is shit. Monthly subscriptions is a model that needs loyalty and should attract people who want to “live” in an permanent virtual game world.
Ideally I’d want a global “entertainment subscription” non-profit that is funding projects for the players benefits and is somewhat crowd-controlled like a socialist bank.
What the fuck did I just watch?
And where can I get more?
the guy’s yt channel? https://www.youtube.com/@shapiro127/videos
although I wanted to go with my misrembered futurama quote “There aren’t anymore. and there never will be anymore”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGeUfYusTf4&t=19s
but I remembered the quote wrong
