- cross-posted to:
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
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Holy fucking shit this isn’t just a meme, wtaf is going on at Microsoft.
The FOSS aficionados of Lemmy will probably be quick to tell me it’s always been shit, but this seems like a marked increase in bad decisions in the past 5-10 years
Business majors.
Same as everywhere else, management wants random shit done chop chop chop, fires actual developers who tell them they’re the dumbest pieces of shit they’ve seen in this lifetime and hire random bros who say “whatever dude, just wanna get paid” then copy-paste google results because bing sucks.
Middle manglement is the source of nearly all bad decisions once companies get large enough to have it. Upper management is often dog shit, but they usually have an idea of what they want done. Whether that’s. Net positive for consumers is a different story, but they don’t intend for it to be implemented poorly.
Middle manglement then takes that, fucks it up putting each of their little stamps on it as it hits every rung on the ladder as it works it’s way down to the people that have to implement it.
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I was expecting it t9 at least be a XAML C# app
Is Growth Mindset. Don’t you have Growth Mindset?
~2018 to ~2022 was nice, things started to get a little better. But now it’s trash.
Oh, but it absolutely is true. Microsoft really did decide to use React Native for parts of the Windows 11 Start menu. They’re also using it in sections of the Settings app.
The technical reality is even more absurd than the meme suggests. Microsoft is currently maintaining eight different UI frameworks for Windows, including their own .NET MAUI and WinUI 3 that were specifically built for their OS. Yet somehow they thought, “You know what this native operating system needs? A JavaScript framework originally designed for mobile apps.”
The CPU usage spikes aren’t necessarily from React Native itself being particularly heavyweight, but rather from the fundamental architectural choice of running a web-based rendering engine for core system UI elements. Every time you click Start, you’re essentially launching a mini web application just to display a menu.
What’s particularly galling is that Microsoft has acknowledged WinUI’s performance issues for years, to the point where they recommend their partners use the older WPF for performance-critical applications. So instead of fixing their native framework, they decided to add another layer of abstraction.
This is what happens when corporate development teams prioritize “developer experience” and trendy frameworks over system efficiency. Richard Stallman’s expression in that image perfectly captures the appropriate level of technical horror at this decision.
The old world built operating systems. The new world builds web apps that pretend to be operating systems.
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Not to mention, windows 11’s hardware requirements creating needles e-waste
So, what I’m hearing you say is that MS should jam Copilot into every single app and every corner of the OS, to turn ordinary actions into LLM-driven ones? Because that’s what the users and the planet are clamouring for.
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🌈 sarcasm🌈
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React Native doesn’t render using a browser instance, it’s native code (as the name implies), it’s actually a layer over WinUI 3 (Previous versions used WPF/UWP)
So it’s in the same boat as MAUI, which is also a layer over WinUI 3.
They didn’t say it was?
The CPU usage spikes aren’t necessarily from React Native itself being particularly heavyweight, but rather from the fundamental architectural choice of running a web-based rendering engine for core system UI elements.
I suppose i lack an understanding of whether React Native is a web based rendering engine or not but i figured they could also be referring to edge implementation in the same feature.
Like saying coffee isn’t hot because of the mug it’s in but the brewing machine it came out of.
Oh, the pedants have arrived. How delightful.
Yes, technically The_Decryptor is correct - React Native doesn’t literally spin up a Chromium instance like Electron does. It transpiles JavaScript into native calls. But they’re completely missing the forest for the trees here.
The fundamental architectural absurdity remains unchanged: Microsoft is using a JavaScript framework - originally designed for mobile apps - to render core operating system UI elements. Whether that JavaScript gets compiled to native calls or interpreted in a browser engine is irrelevant to the core criticism.
Your coffee analogy is actually closer to the mark than The_Decryptor realizes. The performance issues aren’t just about the final native calls - they’re about the entire abstraction stack Microsoft has built.
You’ve got JavaScript -> React Native bridge -> WinUI 3 -> whatever underlying Windows API calls. Each layer adds overhead, complexity, and potential failure points. The_Decryptor saying “it’s in the same boat as MAUI” isn’t the defense they think it is - MAUI has its own performance issues precisely because of similar abstraction layers.
This is exactly the kind of technical bike-shedding that lets corporations get away with architectural disasters. Everyone argues about implementation details while the Start menu still stutters when you click it.
The old world would have written the Start menu in C++ and called it a day. The new world creates dependency graphs that look like spider webs and then argues about whether the spider web is technically made of silk or polyester.
Heel yeah now that’s the clarification I’m here for! (Actually honest, cheers and thanks!)
Can’t they extract more data from a mobile set-up? I’m assuming that’s why they did it, they’re trying to take it to a phone experience for the corporations.
Nope.
The reason you do react native is because it’s easier to hire react native devs. Further, there’s a plethora of react native libraries that make it easier to make UXes above other UX frameworks.
The problem MS has is they have spent decades making platform locked UX frameworks because they were deathly afraid someone would use Linux instead of Windows.
Browser tech won because every major platform needs a browser and basically no organization was investing in multiplatform UX libraries. The likes of both Microsoft and Apple are openly hostile to such frameworks (QT and GTK come to mind).
The likes of both Microsoft and Apple are openly hostile to such frameworks (QT and GTK come to mind).
Funny thing, the OneDrive client app that ships with Windows, uses Qt
I have a Windows laptop for the first time in well over a decade for a project I am working on. Even though it is overpowered (i7, 64gb ram), and it is currently “idle”, the cooling fans are working overtime because the damn OS is always busy doing some random shit when “idle”. This is AFTER I ran a debloat script. It was near impossible to use before then.
EDIT: I found the cause of the fanning issue and different behavior between Win 11 and Linux (Pop!_OS). Even though the laptop comes with an Nvidia RTX 4000 series GPU, Windows 11 set the global default GPU to be the integrated graphics (Intel UHD). The same laptop under Pop!_OS automatically set the default GPU to Nvidia. As soon as I dug this up and switched the settings to Nvidia, the laptop stopped fanning full speed nonstop.
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I’ll just reiterate that this is a work computer provided by a client. They lend them out to contractors like myself. Since they don’t know what the work will require, they order them with max specs. It’d be a monster if I could slap linux on it, but with Win 11 it is just meh at best.
kind of apples to oranges, but the bit about contractors and employees being assigned computers that dont match the needs of the job hit me.
a friend of mine is a video game developer, works for one of the Microsoft studios, He’s a Narrative Director, and no that isnt writing. to my understanding his job is mostly revolving around setting up sequences of events so that characters, special effects, music, etc all plays in the correct sequence and functions properly, its kind of like editing, but instead of a timeline, its a 3d world.
It does need a graphics card and a fair amount of ram, but the computer they gave to him, since he works from home as a remote employee in Canada, is a complete beast. its about 3x more than what is needed for the job.
It was actually kind of comical listening to him complain about a game he wanted to play, not working very well on his personal PC, and he had a monster system in his possession, that couldnt be used to play games.
I’d boot that fucker from a usb drive and have my own shit on that. Or I’d borrow the video card every evening.
I know they lock them down pretty good, but not so good that they could stop me gaming on it in some way.
Nahhhh. If they’re willing to let you work remote and also give you over specced stuff instead of underspecced that sounds like a good gig. Don’t ruin it.
Unticking “alow this drive and its contents to be indexed” and terminating the indexing service helps.
And might as well, not like the fucking search works anyway, even with web search disabled. At least on W10.
Everything by VoidTools is a million times better than the Windows search, it indexes every file and then actually finds it right away when you search for it.
Have enterprise win 11 now and it isnt as bad as that. Its stupid, but not evil.
I don’t get why people exaggerate this much. I have a laptop with a 7840hs and 32gb of ram so it’s also “overpowered” but it’s whisper quiet and consumes 30-45w while doing simple tasks. Consumption only increases if I’m running code, playing games, etc which makes total sense.
Windows is not a well optimized os and the telemetry sucks but you’re just flat out lying with your claims. It’s either that or your laptop has the worst possible cooling.
I have a laptop that I dual boot Windows 11 and Ubuntu on.
If I leave the Windows desktop idle for >20 minutes the fans will almost always randomly flare up even though I’m doing nothing. On Ubuntu, the desktop usually stays silent, or sometimes the fans come on a little (probably due to bloated browser apps) but never flare up the way it does on Windows.
Again, the most common problem in those cases are crappy drivers/fan curves. I have a laptop with W11 on it and fix/maintain laptops for friends as well and this is not an issue with any of them. The only time I had this problem was with a specific laptop.
Honestly, of all of the things you could criticize about windows (and there are lots), this is the one thing that is simply not an inherent OS problem.
I should test this. I normally set an aggressive fan curve so the CPU doesn’t overheat, and because I game on my laptop I use the custom fan profile instead of the default quiet one. I should try using a different fan profile when not gaming.
No exaggeration. I could literally record video at any time to show how it is fanning like crazy. If it is on, it is fanning like a jet plane.
EDIT: Problem found. Win 11 defaulted to integrated graphics even though the laptop has an Nvidia GPU. The same laptop with a Linux (Pop!_OS) install defaulted to the Nvidia GPU. That’s just dumb.
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Exactly this. I used to have an HP Omen 15 laptop with a 10th gen H variant i7 cpu that would constantly make a noticeable fan noise and would ramp up and down for no reason but the problem was the laptop. Everyone complained about it. The current one is an Omen 16 and it doesn’t have that problem at all. Even when gaming.
Seriously? Got a link for that? (Not in a “I don’t believe you” way, but more of an “I’m curious to learn more” way)
Somehow this is hard to google, so sorry for linking to reddit, but here’s a thread where people are discussing it.
(edit: looks like someone found a better source elsewhere in the comments)
Not to mention the memory leak and how the “Start” process in Task Manager increase RAM usage every time you click that.
LOL
Can add farside.link/ before reddit, YT, etc. links, for mirrors!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJNEFHj8b8&t=276
The start menu section starts @ 4:36I want to see how that works too!
Fuck JavaScript in all its forms.
Ok, in a browser is fine. But HARD pass on electron and all this bullshit
Ok, in a browser is fine.
JavaScript was never fit for purpose even in a browser. We could’ve had Python or Scheme in the browser instead, but nooooo, Brandon Eich had to be fucking incompetent.
How about Lua? I don’t like Python that much.
I wasn’t idly speculating about languages that I personally happen to like better; I was listing the two languages that Netscape was actively considering at the time before they decided to glom on to the Java hype. When I say “we could’ve had Python or Scheme,” I mean Netscape almost picked Python or Scheme.
If it makes you feel any better, I get the impression that Scheme would’ve been the more likely of the two. Also, this was happening in 1995, so Lua was less than two years old at the time and, according to this page, not internationally known yet (that would happen in 1996).
But we can do it now ^^
Gonna be real, Lua would have been perfect for this. I get what you’re saying about netscape though,
What are you talking about, giving one of the only programming languages where binary sizes matters a tiny standard library is a great idea!
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Why even building .NET, when they are rewriting typescript in go. It’s Microsoft, often shoots itself in the other foot 🤪
Windows is not making much money, and they are reducing costs. Frontend devs are cheaper than dot net.
Recently something has changed and the start menu likes to search for apps in its browser (not my default app). I used to press windows key then type “snip” for the screenshot tool, now half of the time is does the wrong thing …
Also here’s a link to post talking about react in the start menu https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30384494
glad I am not the only one. I even disabled the Bing and Websearch bullshit, but somehow in 1 of 5 cases the search result is not the software I am looking for. Even when I type exactly its name.
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It’s why I’m gonna change to Linux permanently come the end of Win10.
Do it now. It’s great!
I’ve been seriously considering switching to Mint or Ubuntu since they’re user friendly. The more I hear about win 11 the less and less I want anything to do with it. also, my pc isn’t compatible so there’s that 😂
That’s the reason I swapped.
So far it’s been a good switch
I gave up on windows 11 last week after my downloads folder decided to stop opening any more. Every other folder worked fine, and I could use a save dialogue to see and navigate inside downloads, but if I opened the folder run file explorer I was met woth a never ending “working on it…” Screen. Hours of trawling useless Microsoft posts to see its a common issue but none of the suggested fixes worked.
I installed Pop! OS, which is essentially Ubuntu but Ive heard works very well with games. Few small hiccoughs getting used to the UI paradigm shift but its motoring along now with no problems. My 5 year old desktop is running much smoother with less overall resource use too. Feels snappier.
The smoother part sounds very appealing. I will look into this distro. Thanks.
Let me know what you think of it! I had some minor issues with my secondary hard drive, but they were entirely my fault, I had a lot of backups on it so didn’t initially reformat it from NTFS which I was using for windows to ext4 which is a native Linux format. It would sometimes not mount the drive on boot, but after transferring the backups to an external drive and reformatting the internal drive it was all good.
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Download the Mint live CD and give it a shot!
That is a great idea. And since my desktop is old as a dinosaur it still has a cd burner. So I’ll take it as a win LOL
The easiest distro I have used so far it’s Endeavour-Os (for my desktop). All my homelab uses debian except the mandatory W11 VM and a WS for veeam.
Endeavour-Os sounds appealing. I like easy!
Same same, I just hope I can replace my dying PC before switching
I just did that, using Fedora KDE now, works great
The only realistic answer to the win11 situation. I chose bazzite because I like to game. It’s a dream, I never looked back.
I mean there’s also 0patch.
Why wait? Switch now and get used to it.
I switched last August.
Say what you will but I’m kind of addicted to the PC Gamepass. I have to get through a backlog before I give it up.
That’s how they get you.
I’m already rocking Manjaro, put my old windows boot drive in a box in case I need it for whatever reason.
Mint + a game-box user myself :-)
Sometimes there is an old soft inly working on windows, but they are getting more and more rare as they no monger work on windows… Fantastic.
And it’s a terrible app, at that. No organization, just either some random application links, or one giant list with no categories or organization past alphabetical.
New CPU benchmark: 100 start menu clicks per second.
Going to need some LN2 for that!
Don’t they have like 9 graphics libraries and frameworks accross 4 languages already?
It’s actually at least 13.
I remember people arguing that Linux having two main toolkits were holding it back back in 2000-2010 but then Microsoft invents a few billion UIs just for itself. Even the one big megacorp can’t be bothered to keep things consistent.
They need to scrap all this shit and take a massive step back and start over. Absolute bollocks.
reminds me of this story: “Temporary” disk formatting UI from 1994 still lives on in Windows 11 - Ars Technica
And that’s one of their best UI. You understand everything with a single glance, no need to press shift to get more things, there are no more things, that’s all there is.
It’s an interesting piece of tech ephemera, but devils advocate here, I’m not sure that I agree with the implication that this is a bad thing. The UI works. It gives you all the options you need with no major downsides or pain points. In this case, I think there’s something to be said for: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
Agreed, I just find these instances of unintended longevity really fascinating :) The other day I was reading an article about how some infrastructure in Western countries still runs from floppy discs:
And in San Francisco, the Muni Metro light railway, which launched in 1980, won’t start up each morning unless the staff in charge pick up a floppy disk and slip it into the computer that controls the railway’s Automatic Train Control System, or ATCS. “The computer has to be told what it’s supposed to do every day,” explains a spokesman for the San Francisco Municipal Transport Agency (SFMTA). “Without a hard drive, there is nowhere to install software on a permanent basis.”
This computer has to be restarted in such a way repeatedly, he adds – it can’t simply be left on, for fear of its memory degrading.
In some sectors, the legacy use of floppy disks is being phased out. In 2022, a Japanese politician “declared war” on the ongoing use of older media. Subsequently, earlier this year, Japan’s Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry announced that the government would no longer require businesses to submit official forms and applications on floppy disk. The Japanese government finally declared “victory” by scrapping the rules in July 2024.
Imagine having to submit official forms on floppy disks even last year 😂
Nothing is as permanent as a temporary fix!
Jesus
Btw, the formatter dialog in Windows 11 setup (yeah, i had to) looks NT too.
Ironically, this is the result of various people at Microsoft at various times declaring “we need to scrap all this shit and start over”
There’s some logic behind each, but each time assumes they don’t have to do anything to port forward the previous approach to new UX standards as those will just die out. If it was roughly 13 screenshots of different developer experience, but consistent looking and behaving UI for the actual user, everyone could just shrug, maybe developers getting a bit grumpy about Microsoft’s inconsistency.
Switched to Linux at the beginning of the year. Still have a lobotomized local windows 11 boot for gaming/VR still though. Can’t wait for the day I can finally get rid of it totally.
I’m rocking an LTSC 10 until 2027.
Depending on what games you’re running you might already be able to. https://lvra.gitlab.io/ https://areweanticheatyet.com/ https://www.protondb.com/
The latest Proton update finally fixed VR on linux for me. It’s working like a dream now with my index.
I’m foreseeing a spike in people asking me for help installing Linux.
He you there, totally random person. How do I install Linux?
Full guide here for Linux Mint. But the tl;dr is:
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Boot to that USB drive
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Press next a bunch in the Mint installer
Any experience with blood sacrifices?
Did the Linux gods see what the hardware gods had going on and decide to get in on the action?
I’ve been experimenting with Linux for a year now running a home server. It’s not that hard, the other person’s comment is exactly what I did.
I used Ubuntu at first but when I fried it I figured I’d try Mint on my re-install. It’s been on Mint for about 4 weeks now.
My thoughts as a still relative newbie:
On both Ubuntu and Mint, user/group permissions are confusing to me even using the GNOME tools app. I wish I there was a better UI to set it up.
My issues are mostly to do with external drives. First of all, it’s weird that I even have to specify a mount point if I don’t want to have to memorize my drive’s device ID, but I figured that out.
Then in Ubuntu I’d reboot and my server software would lose access to the drives. If I unplugged them before rebooting and let it boot then plugged them in the server software could read but not write. So I’d have to do a sudo chmod 777 -R /external drives/ after rebooting too.
I’m having the same issue with reboots in Mint if I don’t unplug them, but if I do it now remembers the permissions now so I don’t have to do the terminal command. This may have nothing to do with the OS. Maybe I messed something up the first time. 🤷♂️ Point is: I’m not having fun dealing with external drives.
Ubuntu didn’t come with GNOME tools but Mint did. (It’s basically a set of apps for all your system settings. Command line is so annoying for this stuff.)
Aesthetically, Ubuntu reminds me of Mac OS while Mint reminds of Windows. Apparently they’re the same-ish under the hood.
I’m a Mac user and I’m not ready to switch my daily driver to Linux yet, but I’m sure I will one day.
Thx! That’s insightful! I’ll go for dual boot tho.
It’s a good call. I still haven’t tried it on my main hardware, but I have an old SDD I plan to use for that sometime soon.
The laptop I’m running my server on is old, so I don’t really see a point in testing the games I usually play on it. I did try a couple low-resource games: OpenRA and 0AD; they’re fine. Steam works and Dawn of War booted up, but I haven’t done much else in that area.
I haven’t touched video or audio editing at all for the same reasons. Especially with it running server stuff in the background.
Email, web browsing, all you basic stuff works just fine. No complaints.
Well first and foremost find yourself a distro you like, I’d suggest something Debian based if your just starting out but no judgement if you want to so to speak jump in the deep end. After that you’ll grab a .iso file from wherever said distro keeps such things and you’ll need to learn how to ‘burn’ that to either a USB drive or a regular disc if you want to do it old school. Then you’ll need to learn how to get to either the boot menu or BIOS on your computer in order to get it to start from the new OS you’ve just plugged in. After that the install menu on the new distro should walk you through the rest. Don’t worry, I know it sounds foreboding but I first did it as a kid, it’s easier than it looks.
For what it’s worth, GNOME Shell and its extensions are written in JavaScript too.
Yet using React is a red flag for an OS. You’d imagine Microsoft has the means to make it work with just JS. I doubt they use 10% of the React depency. All for a start menu…
So is using JavaScript. If I find any enduring process running on my computer running JavaScript, I mercilessly hunt it down, murder it, then uninstall it.
The only application I allow to run JS is the browser, because the modern web is almost unusable without it. No other app needs it, and there’s always an alternative that doesn’t.
Did javascript kill your family?
Worse sob It killed the web
Ooh, could you elaborate on that if possible? I have some vague ideas why JS is a scourge on the web but I’ve never looked into the specifics.
Do most of the issues stem from the language itself (which is held by effectively duct tape) or do they stem from how it is used?
Oh, there are better people than myself to belabor this particular point.
JS is a not-language that over-exceeded anyone’s wildest expectations for popularity, and people have been playing catch up to try to turn it into a real language with things like TypeScript for years. It’s not designed; it grew, like kudzu. Like poison ivy.
But the worst thing about JavaScript isn’t really its fault; it’s how it’s been abused by web developers. The ecosystem is a toxic mess of security holes and abuse opportunities. The standard development practices resemble less real software development and more Jackson Pollock throwing paint at a canvas.
It’s just awful. Everything about it is awful. Really good developers can create nice, well-structured, secure, efficient applications in JavaScript; there are 6 of those people in the entire world, and every JS developer thinks they’re one of them.
I don’t think you’re entirely wrong here, but you make sweeping generalizations about programmers that I see a lot online that irk me.
Most developers I know have a few languages they’re familiar with. A good developer uses the right tools for the job. When I work with my python shop I use that. When I need a quick webapp it’ll be JS. If there’s something that requires high performance I might try go.
Every language has pitfalls and vulnerabilities, but that really says nothing of their utility. Any flame war between languages is typically pedaled by dilettantes fueled by memes they don’t understand (like javascript == memes)
take this admittedly ancient study of vulnerabilities divvied up by language:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/which-are-the-most-insecure-programming-languages/In JS, you don’t have to free memory manually. Nor in python. This (mostly) precludes a whole class of severe bugs/vulns, but those weren’t relevant anyway because they’re different tools for different jobs.
We can bemoan the gigantic js ecosystem, but we can also realize it is a fantastic resource for novices and veterans alike.
remember that interview with the microsoft chief imbecile that maybe somewhere somehow up to between 20 to 30 % or 10% of all of the projects is written by AI? https://pivot-to-ai.com/2025/05/13/if-ai-is-so-good-at-coding-where-are-the-open-source-contributions/ i think it makes sense…shitty copilot is more likely to suggest some react snippets to the intern tasked with making the start buttom than knowing anything about WinUI or other closed source shit. They should turn WinUI into a react wrapper like they did with powershell… enshittify everything.
This explains so much
