- cross-posted to:
- memes@sopuli.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- memes@sopuli.xyz
cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15795315
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When lemmy.ml answer detected:
I like to get them going. I respond with “that’s BS” or “prove it” and they give me a essay
More energy efficient GPT?
I don’t have an issue with lemmy.ml users but that’s because I don’t use sweeping generalizations. I’ve had perfectly acceptable conversations with people across all kinds of instances.
I’m not a tankie but am a fan of parts of communism and I like socialism.
I like socialism too. But I hate bootlicking authoritarian simps who pretend like they know shit about socialism because they read that one Lenin essay on Marxist.org
The problem is that folks see these things implemented in the past and say “let’s just do that.” Why can’t we take the good parts and think beyond the rest? These are systems that just won’t work with current population growth and resources. We can always do far and away better than capitalism, but I’ve talked to a handful of working class people that lived under communism for years and they have nothing good to say about it. Not a single positive thing. It’s easy to dream about these things and wax poetic when you don’t experience them firsthand.
Any time a path opens to seize power, humans fill that void regardless of what they believe in. Now suddenly we’ve traded authoritarian 1 for authoritarian 2. It makes no sense to me and I read both Lenin and Marx.
It’s not even an issue of population. Communism requires material conditions you simply cannot create by killing the opposition, no matter how much you desire to preserve “the revolution.”
Capitalism is but one manifestation of material and labor scarcity. Until those things are eliminated you will experience the exact same ills in one form or another. Until those things are eliminated the only option available is harm reduction. Revolutionary communism fails specifically because it fails to recognize itself as a particularly shitty form of harm reduction, insisting the entire concept is bourgeoise propaganda. This is what contemporary leftist theorists have come understand, and what obnoxious internet edgelords refuse to acknowledge, because it requires admitting that Stalin and Mao didn’t get it right.
Ironically this is literally the foundation of Dengism and modern China, which MLs say they like, until you reduce it to first principles, at which point it once again becomes bourgeoise propaganda.
Until those things are eliminated you will experience the exact same ills in one form or another.
Under capitalism, stores throw perfectly good food in a padlocked bin while people starve. Investors speculate on empty properties while people die of exposure. Capitalism creates scarcity so that it can sell people the solution.
It’s 2024, our technologies for agriculture, medicine, engineering, and education are amazing. In terms of the basic necessities of life, we are already a post scarcity civilisation. What we’re lacking is a post scarcity economy to match it.
The problem is that folks see these things implemented in the past and say “let’s just do that.” Why can’t we take the good parts and think beyond the rest?
Of course we should! Every instance of socialism should adapt to the specific material conditions. There’s not much reason to think that socialism in developed countries would look the same as socialism is pre-industrial societies.
It’s just that in order to know what worked and what didn’t, it’s necessary to treat those projects as serious, earnest attempts at socialism and to be willing to point out both the positive and negative aspects. And doing that will immediately get you branded as a tankie by .world. Because in practice, tankie doesn’t actually mean that you defend everything any socialist state ever did, it means that you defend anything a socialist state ever did. Thinking critically and trying to learn from the mistakes from the past makes you a tankie.
Dronies have a pathological need to distance themselves from every attempt at socialism (except the ones that failed, which can be upheld as perfect since they never had to implement their vision), which renders them unable to look at the past from an objective standpoint. They are more concerned with making sure everyone knows that they’re “one of the good ones” than they are about studying and learning from the past. Tankies, otoh, are willing to own up to the facts and acknowledge that past projects were genuine attempts, even when they ultimately failed as the USSR did. Of course it would not have failed if it didn’t have its flaws. But you will rarely see a dronie pushing this angle or interrogating the reasons for the failure, because learning from its mistakes is too close to treating it as as serious and legitimate project - far better (and easier!) to just write off the whole thing and push for shit that has only ever existed in your head and has never been tainted by contact with reality.
My former officemate grew up in Russia in the 80s, he hated a shitload about growing up in the Soviet Union. He raved consistently about two things: the education system and gender equality.
His mother was a mathematician and computer programmer, and he didn’t have issues with school there until after he’d been here (the US) as an exchange student and had some… Cultural differences with his teachers.
“People who smile a lot in Russia are considered to be unintelligent”
I’ve talked to a handful of working class people that lived under communism for years and they have nothing good to say about it. Not a single positive thing. It’s easy to dream about these things and wax poetic when you don’t experience them firsthand.
You should talk to some Australians instead. Australia’s communist nations have been stripped of their land, so most australians alive today don’t have much direct experience with communism, but the modern descendants of Australian communists all have good things to say about the way it was done 300 years ago what with the stateless, classless, moneyless gift economy.
What’s worse on the internet these days is “Marxists” that have never read Marx, or just the Manifesto, yet think themselves an authority on the subject. I made an intro to Marxism reading list to help alleviate that, and try to point out misframings and misunderstandings of Marx when I see it, but it’s still a huge issue across Lemmy. Particularly Lemmy.world.
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That’s why I think they’re astroturfers. I mean how else are you going to deter people from a political idea without being completely insufferable?
The communism is a facade for their propaganda, and it also bolsters extremist discourse. Win-win for them.
You’re absolutely right. I just signed up on .ml because I was a reddit refugee and it was one of the largest instances, and it got the fastest updates. Like a year later, suddenly everyone’s talking about me like I’m part of some crazy cult. I bet well over half of .ml users don’t even come close to the extreme stereotype, but are considering going to another instance just so we don’t get bullied any more. It’s likely going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It pushes the lemmy.ml users who are normal out while angering and reinforcing the identity of the ones who are extreme.
Sure, whatever. That’s what happened on X. The normal people are leaving and the Nazis are stuck in their hate bubble with no normal people to talk to. Let’s do that.
I’m not even a .ml user and posts like these are pushing me to switch to their instance lol.
Posts like that encourage extremism. It pushes the lemmy.ml users who are normal out while angering and reinforcing the identity of the ones who are extreme.
if your community becomes more toxic when people leave it because other communities call it toxic…maybe its actually toxic.
IMO if I was running an instance it would have already defederated from ml instances.
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Sounds like you might like anarchism
I do have some anarchist tendencies.
Nothing about a dictatorship is public ownership.
*ism is just a tool for any aspiring autocrat. Stalin would have been far-right if he saw it as being a valid pathway towards power.
Effective tyrants are forever pragmatic and never burdened by ideological loyalty.
Yes that’s why I stated Stalin, Putin, and the CCP are ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. People who enjoy socialist concepts should be opposed to Lemmy.ml, not see common grounds with them.
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Hey, I was you about 6 months ago. Same views, and then I was called a dirty imperialist just because I wasn’t left enough. Like, these ML people are out for blood. They want a revolution and it’s acceptable if people have to die to achieve it.
They want a revolution and it’s acceptable if people have to die to achieve it.
Yeah that’s how revolutions work. Because the alternative, at least in theory, is more people dying of poverty, environmental pollution, institutionalized oppression, and other consequences of the current global economic system.
The CCP nad Putin cucks aren’t even leftists, like at all. ML and Hexbear supported Donald Trump because he is anti-NATO.
I hate when leftists punch down on other leftists. It’s not a competition!
but am a fan of parts of communism and I like socialism.
Probably why you don’t have issues with Lemmy.ml users.
Im the same, I like socialism and the theory of communism is nice.
I don’t like .ml users because they hardcore believe and spread the bastardized authoritarianism-based CCP/Russian propaganda version of communism.
Right. They’re opposed to socialism and what the hold up as communism is actually Fascism with a heavy dose of State Capitalism.
What you’re looking for is anarchism. Aka libertarian socialism.
Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism.
Um. No. I rather enjoy having a government, just a government that isn’t corrupted by the rich and actually takes care of its people like it’s supposed to. That inherently necessitates it having authority.
That’s not what the theory of communism aims for, but you do you.
Edit: to go in a bit more details, anarchism doesn’t deny all authority, just authority gained by and used for coercion. A doctor would still have authority to recommend treatments, since they are more knowledgeable, for example. So that uncorrupted and caring government you want is simply a form of anarchism
Either you’re thinking of something else or you should go update Wikipedia then, because that’s where I got that description from.
That description does not contradict my words. It says about abolishing coercion and hierarchy, not authority
Edit: I re-read your reply. Yes, the part about being “against all forms of authority” is not entirely accurate, but the second part is true nonetheless. I suppose you could rephrase my example with the doctor and call it an “expertise” instead of authority, but the concept of it is people would still defer to specialists in specific fields that have more knowledge and experience than them.
As I’m new to the anarchism myself and do not wish to misrepresent its values, I think this this site might give you a better in-depth look
It’s extremely telling that you are relying on Wikipedia for your understanding of Communism, rather than Marx, Engels, etc. You should read theory, if you want to start I made an introductory Marxist reading list.
You can still appreciate Karl Marx’s Manifesto without endorsing the Soviet Union or China.
Sure, in the same way I appreciate Kant or Kierkegaard or any other modernist - as foundational thinkers who laid the groundwork for more contemporary ideas. The entire issue is that so many internet leftists take Marx as dogma, and are often poor students of philosophy outside of that very narrow context, yet will lecture you about how you only disagree with them because you haven’t read enough year one polisci material. ML spaces are as dunning Kruger as the internet gets.
Non-tankies on .ML getting upset at this:
You might not be an idiot, but you’re wearing a T-shirt that says “I AM AN IDIOT” in bold letters across your chest. Maybe change your shirt. 🤷🏻♂️
i’ve created this alt in the interim of finding a more permanent instance residence. Just got exhausted by the massive amount of shit they peddled over there.
Lemmy.sdf.org is a good one with a “very light touch” attitude towards defederating instances of what you’re interested in
Sh.itjust.works is also a good one with great admins I’ve heard (and also funny name)
I hear a lot a spam comes from shi.itjust.works
I’ve seen people say this, but haven’t actually seen it outside of one asshat who picked a fight with Beehaw a year+ ago.
As a user I’ve had a pretty great experience personally.
I’ve just heard from other mods that it can be a source of problems
Could be the case of a vocal minority. The biggest complaints I have scene is that the instance admins allow whatever
TODO: pedal vs peddle.
I bet there’s not a gratuitous amount of bicycling going on over in .ml land, but I could be mistaken.
fixed from ‘pedalled’ to ‘peddled’. I’ve met a decent number of Marxist cyclists, so i could believe it.
Could be, I’m no expert on cycling.
Come to .nz! Our admin has the best track record on trans rights out of any instance drag is aware of.
There are a few tankies on other instances. The difference is that they get in trouble when they act out.
relatable
Looks at username
Wait a minute…
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:3
>:3
Does “be civil” include constantly shitting on huge groups of users just because of the instance they created their account on? There’s a very simple solution for this if you truly believe an entire instance is worthless and it’s called the blocking function, but I suppose that’d stop the joy you get out of loudly complaining about that instance repeatedly.
.world consistently removes memes calling out their own communities. But they leave up any “meme” bashing .ml
But theres a difference, when a .world mod defends genocide or promotes imperalism you know its ok because its in the name of Western Democracy ™. Tbh .ml and .world are basically in a competition on who can fling the most shit and who can bootlick the hardest.
As does ml. Worse even. But the fact that both do is a defense of neither. So I’m not sure why you even bring it up. Be better. World isn’t tied to any particular political ideology. Ml 100% is. And if you mention absolute documented facts. You can and will be banned from there. Because the facts go against the narratives. World has its problems. But I haven’t seen anything approaching that yet.
It’s a meme sub, chill out.
Pretty based take… coming from a lemmy.world user. /$
a) Huge groups of users well known to spread the promotion, praise and propaganda of dictatorships and other authoritarian governments, bigotry, racism and transphobia. Even when there are hard facts against them.
b) The Lemmy blocking function isn’t anywhere as good as you think it is. Maybe even by design, the main admin on .ml is also the lead dev of Lemmy after all.
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I actually didn’t make this meme, I cross posted it from someone else on !memes@sopuli.xyz
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It’s not like it’s a minority of users on .ml doing it that the admins/mods just haven’t brought the ban hammer down on. The admins are part of the problem along with mods cultivate the toxic tankie culture that gets shit on. It’s the non-tankie .ml users who are in the minority, they should have chosen a better crowd to hang with.
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Can you point me to any member of these “huge groups of well known users” spreading bigotry, racism, and transphobia?
First rule of using Lemmy: If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they’re lying.
“Well known” is so patronizing. It’s like OP is saying “yeah, everyone knows about this, what are you, some kind of loser?”. Another one of those phrases that immediately discredits whatever allegation is to follow.
All tankie users are in .ml, but not all .ml users are tankies.
You should always judge the merit of the comment, not whether or not the person is from .ml. If you see a comment that is pro-CCP or pro-Kremlin from an .ml user, then the point of the meme is valid. But a well-thought, benign, good-faith or wholesome comment from an .ml user should not be dismissed.
Not everyone in a nazi bar is a nazi. Let’s hear them out and give them the benefit of the doubt even though they could go to literally any bar, but keep going to the nazi bar
When choosing an instance, it is not necessarily overtly advertised as such. It’s just one of the largest instances, so many “regular” people are obviously going to pick it. New users are not going to be intimately familiar with the elaborate politics of federated Lemmy servers upon first arrival. It would be a bit bizarre to expect them to be.
That’s why I am working to stopped supporting lemmyml. I have created a few new communities already. I don’t want to mod to much so it would be nice if some other people followed suite.
Yeah it seems a lot of the bigger communities from Lemmy.ml have seen alternatives grow in popularity on different instances now.
Makes sense given the current Lemmyml admins
Sure, and anyone can walk into a nazi bar. But with threads like this being fairly common, and ML people behaving as they do, you have every chance to realise pretty quickly and leave
Hell, ML people are bad enough that I imagine a lot of sane people leave lemmy entirely, if they pick an instance that hasn’t defederated ML yet. I’m looking at alternatives myself as getting associated with these types of people isn’t a great idea, and the lemmy developers are part of the problem
No doubt many have tried the fediverse and walked away because of Lemmy.ml/hexbear.
I don’t even admit that I use it as is because of the propaganda. I’m still hopeful for the future but my enthusiasm is dying.
Same, I can’t recommend lemmy to friends or coworkers because of this. Mastodon is much better at this
Maybe I’ll switch to Mastadon. I find myself going back to Reddit as often as using Lemmy these days, so maybe it’s time.
I suspect everyone switching won’t solve the problem. Seems unavoidable that open-access, anonymous social media will be a target for propaganda any time it becomes popular. If everyone leaves for Mastadon, the shills and their LLMs will move over there.
I mean I just never ended up subscribing to political communities, so I never see any political related things anyway. If you only subscribe to meme and lighthearted communities, you’re not likely to run into that stuff. Your comparison of it being a “Nazi bar” doesn’t work. I’ve never been someone who browsed the “all” category of Reddit, and I’ve not been inclined to do that here on Lemmy, either. So no, you often won’t see that sort of thing unless you’re browsing by all communities.
Well, you’d need to pay a very specific amount of attention to not notice the tankies from ML, but really notice and be bothered but people shunning ML because of the tankies. I guess it’s possible, but it seems unlikely to be common
Well now you’re not making any sense. I don’t see “tankie” comments because I don’t subscribe to or browse political communities. Yet I see plenty of posts and complaints about said users in non-political communities. Check where we are right now. We’re in a meme community. Of course if I subscribe to meme communities, I’ll see posts and comments like this. It’s not that complicated to understand.
I see plenty of ML people being awful in meme communities. I’m amazed you don’t. Any even remotely political meme will attract them, or at least would back when they were out in force supporting Trump leading up to the election.
And that is even though I’ve blocked ML and have a hair trigger for blocking .ml accounts
Except the pro-Russians won’t say they’re pro-Russians.
A lot of Russian propaganda is just sowing FUD.
Here’s a tangentially related comic, as I just read the latter bit of your comment in that tone, (not saying you’re guilty of the same things.)
Basically, because being directly pro-Russia is so see-through, a lot of bad actors merely sow FUD. For one check Davel@lemmy.ml if you want an example. A very polite person who lists links and sources (firehose of falsehood is also a soviet strategy btw).
Dude pretends to be American, talks American politics, but always in line with Russian propaganda, while saying things like “reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias” and absolutely refusing to address whether he is pro-Russian or not, despite very clearly having talking points which show he is strongly pro-Russian.
So either he’s an American who fucking loves Soviet culture and larps being Russian, is actively against Ukraine and believes Russia was eight to invade it, so the least patriotic American to ever exist.
OR… (and I believe this to be a tad more likely) he’s actually a lying Russian.
But Russians aren’t known for disinformation and lies, right? Right…?
Yes, of course you are right. But for those less experienced on discourse, there is the principle of charity. It is important to give the benefit of the doubt that the interlocutor is acting in good faith. But when you exhaust all the good-faith and sensible arguments, and that person resorts to either providing irrational points or acting unreasonably and/or disingenuously, then it is completely safe to assume that the person is actually a bad-faith actor. It’s on that person, not on you.
But you should not readily accuse someone a troll unless you could calmly point out why the person is such and such. Trolls exactly want you to do that.
Haven’t i seen you cast these types of accusations before…?
Pure AD HOM. Instead of addressing a single part of my argument, you’re instantly pointing a finger at my person, but you’re so easy that I don’t mind engaging.
“Accusations” like quoting his own comments?
He claims to be American. He says “reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias.” He won’t answer the question “are you pro-Russian”.
Those aren’t opinions. Those are facts you can verify yourself.
Fervently and actively trying to say Russian propaganda doesn’t exist, definitely not on Lemmy, while refusing to answer whether he’s pro-Russian or not. Just what kind of American would you have to be to support Russia and be against Ukraine while actively promoting Russian propaganda? Please, do reason that out for me. Thanks.
I’m not debating you bud, relax.
Pretty much my entire experience with your account is dealing with you accusing me of being a russian operative, even linking me into threads across instances in threads I had no involvement in.
I’m just pointing out the pattern here, though I’m grateful you’ve moved on to another target now.
edit because @Desus@lemmy.world got himself banned on my instance:
I’ve repeatedly stated that I’m not russian nor pro-russian - but that’s the point. There is no way of addressing this accusation thoroughly enough to satisfy the accuser, which is why nearly every community/instance has a rule against it. Nevermind the hopelessness of trying to categorize/typify every anonymous user along some nationalist line of personal significance.
Confusing analysis for justification is a common enough mistake, but it’s an even more common bad-faith way of dismissing materialist analysis entirely. Following various users around to make those accusations is simply a way to force disengagement onto others and potentially solidify reactionary impulses against communism/socialism more broadly.
Oh yes, “another target”.
You felt threatened, because I asked you if you were pro-Russian. Took you a while to respond, btw. And did you even give a yes or no answer? I fail to recall you saying you’re not pro-Russian. And I’ve never accused you of being a “Russian operative”, lol. Spreading Russian propaganda doesn’t even require that you are a Russian. But Davel is claiming to be American, while being intensely pro-Russian and due to the interactions someone dug in the modlog last time, we also know there’s an actual organised effort with them. I still haven’t said that organised effort is actually some paid “operatives”.
You read too much into things. Improve your reading comprehension and maybe you won’t feel so easily threatened by simple questions like “are you pro-Russian” when you use a username like “archomrade” and constantly post things consistent with Russian propaganda. Perhaps you just don’t realise it?
Thanks for your efforts fighting disinformation. Seriously.
Why thank you. I appreciate that. Honestly, more than you’d guess.
They edited their post about four hours after you wrote yours, I suspect to try and discredit your points, because in their post they claim to have repeatedly told you they they’re neither Russian nor pro-Russia, but my skeptical antennae are twitching.
Also, their justification for editing their post is that you’re banned on their instance, which I don’t buy as a reason to edit rather than reply. You’re not banned on world and neither are they.
They edited their post about four hours after you wrote yours, I suspect to try and discredit your points, because in their post they claim to have repeatedly told you they they’re neither Russian nor pro-Russia
Oh yeah I remember that guy. He says he answered the question, but he never did. I thought there was something I wasn’t really recalling. But yeah. Then I kept asking “if you already answered it, why can’t you answer again, it’s a simple yes or no question”, but he just refuses to answer.
Now this might be me imagining things, but these accounts lie about literally anything, but they can’t say “no, I’m not pro-Russian”, because they know how insane Russia is and no matter how unimportant you are, if you actually say you are against the government, even as a clear joke, you might be in danger of falling out of a window.
No yeah they just quit replying once they realise they’re going on a bit too long while absolutely refusing to answer such a simple question. It’s not even “are you Russian”. It’s whether they support the current Russian policies. Anyone who can’t say they’re against Russia literally breaking international law can go fuck themselves. Hear that, @archomrade@midwest.social ?
Chill out there is nothing to get upset about.
Come to think of it, how do I know you aren’t Russian? In truth, how do any of us know we aren’t Russian?
If they absolutely refuse to answer “are you pro-Russian”, while actively spreading Russian propaganda, that might be a tip as to what they support.
I’m against Russia. I’ve been militarily trained to protect my country from Russia, and I’m willing to do it should the fuckers open up a second front here. However seeing how they’re having to pour orcs into the meatgrinder at such a rate that their equipment is getting older and older, we’d end up facing enemies with WWII gear while we’re outfitted with the latest gear.
Plus, we didn’t let them through the last time either.
Haven’t worn this in a while, prolly would have to shave down to a buzzcut for it to fit. But I’m not gonna paste an image of my military pass. Not because I’m afraid I’ll dox myself or anything, but because it was in my storage and a drunken bum fell asleep in the next storage over while smoking cigarettes and burned down the whole storage room with everyone’s storage spaces. Thanks for reminding me though, I need a new one.
Jokes aside, it’s not about whether someone is Russian or not. It’s about whether someone is pro current Russian policies. I mean I’d argue that actual Russian patriots would fight Putin in any reasonable way. And this probably excludes open armed rebellion, but like, just generally, oppose him. People don’t dare to though, as they tend to fall out of windows. I’m not opposed to Russia. I’m opposed to what Russia currently is.
@Dasus@lemmy.world
I literally cannot see anything you’ve posted after you were banned - an instance ban prevents any of your activity from federating. It isn’t that I ‘stop responding’, that possibility has simply been taken away from me because Dasus can’t resist russia-jacketing anyone who disagrees with them. I can only see your comments if I visit the post from any other instance url. Call it unhealthy curiosity, I figured you’d be shadowboxing in my absence.
I do not support Russia and Putin is a piece of shit - feel free to send a screenshot to the kremlin if it makes you feel better. The US isn’t getting involved out of benevolence, though, and Ukraine would be fucked by IMF and US aid conditions for the next century even if they were successful in repelling the russian invasion. But my material analysis about that conflict isn’t even at issue here, instead it’s your insistence that any analysis that involves Russia at all be sufficiently critical, else the speaker be condemned as a pro-russian stooge. It doesn’t mean I think that russian capitalism is preferable, it’s just an acknowledgement that it’s western capitalism that has historically -and is currently- obstructing the development of working-class solidarity across the globe, and exchanging Ukrainian (and russian) lives for its expansion is a shit deal to put it mildly.
No war but class war.
Well I’m sorry I made you write all that, but I do really appreciate you writing “Putin is a piece of shit”, no matter how childish or crazy I may seem to you.
Also, I don’t remember whether in the earlier chat we had some day you actually said that as well. You very well may have, I remember someone saying that at some point, but my short term memory fucking sucks nowadays. But Davel definitely has never answered me.
I don’t see how you could say that any capitalism is favourable to another brand of capitalism. Well, except for perhaps saying that Western capitalism is definitely favourable to capitalism with Asian values, which is essentially capitalism deprived of individual freedom and monopolised by the state, ie authoritarian capitalism taking advantage of Western markets. Watch the video, Slavoj Zizek really has a bette handle on economical philosophy than I do.
There is a lot of war beside class war. Mainly, people doing actual war in places with war. Like Ukraine. Now you could never imagine that a European country (yes Russia is technically one too but let’s ignore that for a while) would actually manage to organise an invasion of another European country with soldiers who don’t even know they’re going to invade another country. “Special Military Operation”. Imagine, idk, Germany pulling that on France? Sure, 100 years ago. But today? You just wouldn’t be able to do that. 100 years ago the populace was still less educated and easier to manipulate. Much like much of Russia’s population and pretty much all of North Korea’s. If those were educated westerners, they’d have never bought into the propaganda of their respective nations and they couldn’t have organised such military efforts.
Is there shitty western propaganda? Yes. Do western countries have a lot of fault and some even actively warmonger? Yes. But is our active worry Western countries? No. (Well, aside from the US because of Trump.) Is our main worry really Russia at the moment? I think so, yeah.
I don’t see how you could say that any capitalism is favourable to another brand of capitalism. Well, except for perhaps saying that Western capitalism is definitely favourable to capitalism with Asian values, which is essentially capitalism deprived of individual freedom and monopolised by the state, ie authoritarian capitalism taking advantage of Western markets
I don’t view one type of capitalism as more favorable than another, but I do recognize the particular dominance and imperialistic qualities of western capitalism. In fact, I see the the current global conflicts in a similar lens to Zizek when he says:
[the existing western democratic capitalist] “system has lost its self-evidence, its automatic legitimacy, and now the field is open.”
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility, and I even think it’s currently collapsing. I don’t share Zizek’s skepticism of… “Chinese-Singaporean capitalism with Asian values”. He has had some questionable takes on racial/national identities in the past - it’s been a while since I trusted his geopolitical cultural analysis. At the very least I think the ‘Socialism/Capitalism with Chinese characteristics’ has yet to play itself out, whereas there’s about a dozen examples of western imperialist intervention ending in absolute squalor for the working class wherever they’ve been active.
The point is that from a purely ML perspective, there’s nothing to be gained by dragging that conflict out. The working class will be in no better material conditions under either outcome, even if we freely acknowledge their occupation and annexation is both immoral and illegal. So long as western democratic capitalism retains its global significance, there can’t be socialism without a vanguard party to defend against western capitalistic subversion, at least not one that lasts.
There is a lot of war beside class war. Mainly, people doing actual war in places with war. Like Ukraine.
“No war but class war” isn’t a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
“system has lost its self-evidence, its automatic legitimacy, and now the field is open.”
I don’t disagree with this. And it’s actually nice to get into nuance with someone. The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don’t like my chances in what I’m doing, which is not something I’m gonna reveal here just in case there actually is a war. (My war time posting, that is.)
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I’ll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I’m not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
For one, I’ve already explained how I will defend Finland and Europe if it comes down to it, but how people just overhype Finland. “Happiest country in the world”? What fucking garbage. One of the most miserable countries in the world, when it comes to general enjoyment of life. Perhaps one of the safest countries in the world, sure, where you’ll usually have your basic needs met and won’t have to resort to violence or crime, but… “happiest”? Not even fucking close.
It’s not about racial or etchnic takes when Zizek talks about ‘capitalism with Asian values’. Essentially he’s remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically… monopolising the people doing capitalism… so… it’s not gonna “play itself out”. How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have… a population. So you know… you won’t be seeing “the end of” anything like that…
“No war but class war” isn’t a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
Yes but you can also see how quotes can be interpreted in several ways, yes? And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I’d like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
It’s hectic. We can’t use hectic. I want to rage and break things and yell at morons. But unfortunately that’s just never worked and annoying as it is, we have to compromise with morons.
The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don’t like my chances in what I’m doing
I’m sorry you’re in that situation, genuinely. I don’t want to be one of those guys that confidently speculates about the future of geopolitical conflict, but Russia benefits a lot more from reactionary isolationists getting voted in throughout the western world and weakening resolve for joint sanction than they do with open conflict with Europe. They wouldn’t be able to march into Finland or Poland without NATO taking action, and they certainly do not want to get into open conflict with NATO - that’s half the reason they’re in Ukraine to begin with.
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I’ll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I’m not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
And i’d gladly discuss it when I know i’m talking to someone who understands that it isn’t just western ‘politics’, it is a matter of the internal contradictions within democratic capitalism itself. It’s not a matter of western nations ‘deciding’ not to be jackasses, they need to materially separate themselves from the needs of capital itself, and we’ll sooner sink to fascism than achieve that spontaneously.
Essentially he’s remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically… monopolising the people doing capitalism… so… it’s not gonna “play itself out”. How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have… a population. So you know… you won’t be seeing “the end of” anything like that…
Err, yea… That is basically the only reason they’ve been as successful as a communist nation to begin with. I understand people’s apprehension to include China as a communist or socialist nation state given the idealistic non-violent vision that’s romanticized in the west, but the way in which they’ve enacted their “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is still consistent with a marxist vision of a ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’. I guess we’ll see if/how that system would be implemented in a hypothetical communist/socialist western world, but so far their system has been significantly less violent than even the most charitable characterizations of western democratic capitalism. That’s why I don’t share Zizek’s fear of Chinese authoritarianism taking over in the west - not just because I think the west has greatly exaggerated it to great effect, but also they’ve been downright benevolent with their partner states in comparison to western democratic capitalist states. I think it’s naive to think a western implementation would be the same (but holy shit is that an insane hypothetical given where we currently are)
And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I’d like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
Funnily enough, that is the opposite of what that phrase means - but I can see we’re about to reach the limit on what we agree on so I’ll leave it at that.
The admins of ml are tankies and so are a lot of the communities there. The non tankie users are moving away from that instance which increases the tankie concentration.
I think what you are meaning to say is that many tankies can behave like normal people. To take your comment farther, tankies can be anywhere but you will most likely see them coming from I stances like ml and hexbear or fresh accounts on other instances.
This is like listening to a drunk uncle rant about “them” after watching a tiktok video that triggered him. “The non tankie users are moving away” “tankies can behave like normal people” “tankies can be anywhere”
The admins of ml are tankies and so are a lot of the communities there
… communities like Memes? How about the most popular AskLemmy community that everyone uses? Linux, Privacy, Programmer Humor, wtf are you even talking about now? You’ve fully lost it with this “tankie” hate that’s apparently being fueled by being on here so often. You’ve probably associated any/most downvotes or disagreements into this “tankie”-fantasy which is just further driving it at this point.
Based 👌❤️
Developer: makes platform
End User: “Fuck you.”
Tale as old as time.
But unlike Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Larry Page, the good folks at .ml did nothing wrong.
Genocide apologia is ‘nothing wrong’ to you, I see. Unsurprising.
It’s UnderpantsWeevil, our very own local .world tankie
I have never seen .ml people engage in genocide apologia. They’re fond of authoritarian governments which I find distasteful, but they aren’t pro-genocide.
Go ask about the Uyghurs in China over there and get back to me
A while back they were calling for the total destruction of France
Ask them about the Uyghur genocide or the ongoing genocide of Ukrainians or the Holodomor or the deportation of the Crimean Tatars or etc etc etc etc
Drag has seen many .mls say “Democrats are Republicans are exactly the same.”
The difference between Harris 2024 vs Trump 2024 is one genocide vs three. That’s millions of lives.
Drag has seen many .mls deny the loss of millions of Palestinian, Ukrainian, and transgender lives to push their agenda.
Genocide denial is wrong.
Stop with the sensationalism
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As a resident of a politically indifferent instance that is on good terms with everyone, I can say one thing:
Fuck absolutely everyone who turns Lemmy into yet another Internet battlefield.
Leave .ml alone. Leave Hexbear alone. Even yes - leave Lemmygrad alone. People there will not change their opinion when facing hatred, and newbies coming there doesn’t change the big picture, as Lemmy is federated and they can figure stuff out for themselves.
Trying to silence entire instances, especially the biggest ones, is absolutely not a welcoming picture to whoever’s coming here, and being cut out and filtered for happening to choose the “wrong” instance is the worst possible greeting.
worth .003$ vs a hexbear user
Like comparing the Ruble to the North Korean Won LMAO
This is even less than a Schrutebuck.
oh I’d rather have a schrutebuck 100%
I am .NL not .ML please don’t hate on me dyslexic lemmys
“Corporate needs you to tell the difference between these pictures”
- Why does everyone have beef with lemmy.ml
- Why don’t you just block the instance
Edit: thank you for real responses, got so used to be people getting pissed for no reason on social media that I was genuinely surprised to check Lemmy and see a bunch of genuine answers with no butthurt to be seen
Why does everyone have beef with lemmy.ml
The admins and mods cultivate a community of genocide denial and authoritarian apologism, which many users on the instance then buy into.
Why don’t you just block the instance
Instance blocking only blocks communities, not users, who still show up whenever there’s a Chinese genocide to deny or a Russian atrocity to “WHATABOUT”, or a non-Western aligned dictator to “BOTHSIDES”.
My current favorite is Taliban-simping.
When I accidentally blocked an instance, any comment from a user on that instance would be replaced by a message like “you have blocked this instance and so will not see this comment.” I don’t know if that’s a feature of my client, Connect, or of lemmy itself.
Should be your client.
Damn I’m jealous of your client! That’s a new feature to me!
Enjoy! At least if you’re on Android. I don’t know if an iOS version exists.
You are forgetting the strong hatred for France.
The ml in lemmy ml means marxism-leninism, it’s maintained by the lemmy devs so it has lots of “normal” users too. Some people associate lemmy.ml with “tankie” viewpoints.
Lemmy devs are tankies, especially the main maintainer
At least they’re more level headed than Nutomic is.
Nutonic is literally a transphobe who is on record as saying that trans rights are western degeneracy
The ml in lemmy ml means marxism-leninism
It means Mali and was chosen because it was cheap/free
You’re both right!
It is Mali’s domain, and Marxist-Leninists choose that domain to work out of because of the initialism.
Kinda like why BIOT’s domain is so popular with the tech folks.
And Tuvalu’s domain is popular with streaming sites
chosen because it was cheap
Um nah, there are a LOT of cheap ass TLDs, hell even .com TLDs are only $10-20 a YEAR
It might not actually mean marxism-leninism (then again, who the hell knows, we have .zip TLDs now ffs), but it sure does to the .ml admins
I wouldn’t have a problem with if it wasn’t for the mods
The ml stands for Mali, which is the country the instance domain is registered to. The Marxist-Leninist connection is a happy coincidence for them.
I choose not to block the instance because there is a very small group on there that have non-political discussions that I enjoy, same with hexbear.
I also don’t like creating an echo chamber where all I hear is what I want to hear. Hearing from the other side, as disgusting as their viewpoints can be, at least let’s me know how they think.
I don’t agree with their tankie views, but it does force me to see other views. However I usually just eyeroll and move on.
If I see racism or hate though that’s an immediate block.
Agreed, if it’s targeted like that, you get a block.
I like this view, because I have zero idea what I just walked in on. This account is just 16 days old and I’m just here to chat non-politics and doomscroll. And by 16 days old I mean like 4 because their acceptance email got sent to spam and I didn’t notice it until then.
Tbh, I had no idea there were even factions or drama among the instances.
You should make an account on another instance, if you don’t like the heavy hand of defederation of .world, lemmy.sdf.org is a good one and sh.itjust.works is another
There’s also this community if you want to see for yourself the kind of behavior the admins and mods of .ml support, encourage and even participate in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
Honestly, that’s what I’m currently doing. I’ve always chuckled at the cleverness of the name sh.itjust.works. I started on .world, but I forgot to migrate my 2fa because I switched from Google Authenticator to an open source one on a new phone and didn’t take my lemmy token for some damn reason.
I’m only switching because I’m a neutral entity online when it comes to politics and identity. I use the internet to escape that, not dive into it. I don’t mind seeing it, I just move along and let people be people. I’d rather not be potentially tied to an image or faction by association; its nothing against .ml or anything.
Lemmy.ml admins will delete anything that doesn’t support China or Russia, and they’ll also delete anything that speaks positively of Western countries or concepts. Then they’ll purge the logs so that there’s no evidence that they’re censoring basically everything.
I started on .ml, and left after a couple months when I realized I was the only person on the instance who wasn’t a tanky fully committed to arguing with every post I see. They seem to have toned down a bit after getting defederated a couple times, but there are a lot of extremists on that instance, and they’re very loud. I felt like I was in a Chinese political re-education camp half the time.
the other side
Kremlin propaganda isn’t the other side
Yet propaganda is what has the US where we are today. If you understand the propaganda, you can help push back.
Yes, like pushing back against lemmy.ml
Why does everyone have beef with lemmy.ml
Extending an invitation to peruse !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works for some context of mod behavior
The mods of that community are communists. They seem to mod in good faith but keep that in mind.
- Lots of toxicity and bad takes.
- It isn’t literally the entire instance.
It isn’t literally the entire instance.
Maybe not, but when the admins and mods are part of the problem, it becomes pervasive.
In my experience it is pretty much the entire instance. All the sane people moved to other places.
Their mods behave like Russian commissars. Their users go along with it.
fedia.io doesn’t support blocking, unfortunately 😭
In my experience, the mods on lemmy.ml are particularly biased. Like it’s okay to joke about American school shootings but not about abortions biased. But after a while I just stopped posting there. (I barely post to lemmy at all now, but that’s another story.)
I’m pretty sure making jokes about shootings is worse that jokes about abortions.
Honestly they are both inappropriate
Reasonable people can disagree about the rules, the point is the mods are inconsistent.
(But seriously, do you really want to say one is worse than the other?)
Lemmy.ml is admin’d and moderated mostly by Marxists, and the liberal side of Lemmy is hostile to that. That’s the principle contradiction, everything else stems from that core issue.
Lemmy has a very different community than Reddit - here, people are often outright kind.
In part that’s a large reason for the beef with Lemmy.ml, e.g. recently a mod there removed comments for a user over a misunderstanding in a game, and in the process said that they (the MOD!) wanted to shoot them (the OP), doubling down and even tripping down to say “I hope you die soon”. (Described in more detail here.)
It is ironic that one of the very first Lemmy instances, and also being the one whose admins are also the developers of the Lemmy sourcecode, is so much less like the rest of the people on Lemmy, and more like Reddit. But it is what it is.
Your comment has been removed for including carnist hate words. We don’t use words that glorify murder like the “b” word.
Huh
They’re making a shitty “HAHA VEGANS DUMB” joke like it’s 2010.
Nah, one of my kids are vegetarian and I cook to support them. I have no issues with vegans. I see how it came across that way though.
I suspect you must have missed the .ml vegan community drama a couple months ago. Take every bad stereotype about vegans and ramp it to 11. Everything was in bad faith. It bled into a couple different communities.
Ohhhhh I actually did miss that completely, my bad.
Ah makes sense, gotta put the /s when making references like that
That would have been better in hindsight.
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I don’t care about all the politics and shit regarding instances, i just want to use lemmy :(
woah.
woah?
It’s short for “woke tuah [girl]”
yeah I was echoing the meme. silly joke
woah
You are on the wrong instance for that
I like how this comment would work regardless of the instance they’re on
Facts
They’re on the normal regular instance. Political content is mostly propagated through lemmy.world anyway.
Almost entirely .world starting shit and then complaining when they hear something back.
If you block .world you literally lose 90% of politics and political news from the feeds.
