Both sides are bad
Yep. Just because one side is bad, it doesn’t mean the other is any good.
Cryptocurrency is still dependent of a pyramid scheme and criminals-enabling. Credit card companies are still a private owned government branch with no concern for human rights and criminals-enabling.
I learned recently FedNow is a payment processor ran by the Federal Reserve, with a fee of $0.043 per transaction. Making it much, much cheaper than every other payment processor out there.
It just launched two years ago; I’m wondering if this might become more of a thing moving forward for digital payments.
Say that any louder and it’ll be DOGEd overnight.
Nice but floundered. Call me when consumers and small businesses can use it.
It’s also a heck of a lot quicker to process, (effectively instant) and works even on holidays.
And of course, banks like Bank of America, Capital One, and tons of other financial institutions simply refuse to use it, because that would mean spending money on changing their infrastructure, and making it more convenient for people to also use accounts outside of theirs.
Seriously, it’s been ages, and they’ve refused to use it at all, even though it’s purely a financial and technical upside for every user once it’s implemented.
You pay fees for transactions?
Every digital payment has transaction fees, yes.
Credit card transaction fees for vendors are generally 1-3%, for example.
Every digital payment has transaction fees, yes.
If you say so.
Which digital payment doesn’t have transaction fees?
Credit cards (vendor side), debit cards (vendor side), and crypto (consumer side) all have transaction fees. Paypal, venmo, etc all make their money from (vendor side) transaction fees as well. Is there a different type of digital payment you are using that doesn’t have transaction fees?
Criminals-enabling is what they call VPNs, E2EE encrypted communication etc.
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Yep, but cryptocurrency isn’t dictating what you can spend with it…yet at least. So if no government does anything to help us, then we must adopt a cryptocurrencies like Monero to fight back against censorship as nothing more than a private citizen.
This. Corporate shit weasels or supporting human trafficking.
“We should restrict the free use of oxygen because terrorists can breath it to sustain themselves.”
C’mon. Crypto has issues, but this ain’t one of them. Pandering to people’s fear is how fascist seize power for themselves and perpetuate the horrors we feared in the first place.
is the main problem with crypto who is on control? Bc it seems like ultra rich people. I have yet to see crypto become something people can do for themselves. You have to have the fastest gpu to solvw the puzzle first and get the coin, right? Maybe hierarchicalization is the problem.
Ugh, the “both sides” argument again… /s
Yeah, I’m going to buy my games with bitcoin now.
Oh shit, the fee is higher than the price of the game, can I use Litecoin ?
The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $0.67. Which means for a purchase larger than $34, Bitcoin is cheaper than the average credit card transaction fee.
I don’t have a credit card. If you pay per transaction, is there at least no monthly base fee?
There are are no other fees for holding crypto, you only pay when you move it from one place to another, those fees change depending on time of day/week as well. Though some services (like coincards) may take additional processing fees.
A credit card, in the US, has a transaction fee for the vendor, 1-3% of the purchase price, sometimes with a flat few cents fee on top.
The consumer has no transaction fee, but does pay interest (around 28% annually) if they don’t pay off the full balance every month (if they do pay it in full at the end of the month, there is no interest charge). Usually there will be a 1-2% cash back for the consumer as well.
Some credit cards also have an annual fee for the consumer. These generally have higher cash back rewards and higher vendor transaction fees than those that don’t.
Thanks.
The merchant pays the fee. With cryptocurrencies, the consumer pays the fee. Some sites offer a discount for paying with cryptocurrency as a result. For example, most precious metals dealers who accept Bitcoin offer a 3% discount for using it.
I only buy games at $30 or cheaper. So that won’t work for me 🤷♂️
You only have to wait one hour for the transaction to be confirmed. It also takes a shit load of energy and is extremely inefficient compared to credit card payment processors. Woohoo!
The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $0.67.
For a ~60 minute confirmation target. It’s $0.77 for a 20 minute confirmation target right now. The daily average is $1.03.
And lets not forget that the only reason the price is so low now is because people aren’t competing much for those transactions. If people actually used bitcoin to buy games the transaction fee would increase significantly.
Cumrocket is the way!
Thanks for the tip, I’m putting all my life savings into it then.
This exists too ::: spoiler spoiler https://coinstats.app/coins/8fZL148nnC168RAVCZh4PkjvMZmxMEfMLDhoziWVPnqf_solana/ :::
Bitcoin is pretty old, newer cryptocurrencies are more efficient.
Yeah I’m using this cool new Lightning cryptocurrency, check it out.
Lightning network exists too
Litecoin is cool.
the fee might be higher at some points but you’re just blabbering. check mempool.space and actually look at what fees are at rn + consider that there are many chains and l2s that can be used for payment. B)
A dollar in fees is a dollar more than with fiat for the person paying. That and do you expect enough normal people to learn about L2s and chains to make it worthwhile for Valve or whoever to implement support for anything besides the main chains of 2-3 major cryptos and stablecoins on ethereum main?
I mean either you care enough about payment processor censorship to go around them or you don’t. If the extra dollar isn’t worth it to you then just make your choice.
Nobody is going to rush to implement a payment system where the fees can change 5x hour to hour because that’s just customer dissatisfaction waiting to happen.
That’s actually one of the matured parts of the crypto ecosystem that has existed for years already, as it was one of the most immediate needs. Last I checked Stripe and Bitpay were the most popular options for vendors.
A dollar in fees is a dollar more than with fiat for the person paying.
Average credit card transaction fee is ~2%. So a dollar of Bitcoin fees makes Bitcoin cheaper for any purchase over $50.
The transaction fee is not paid by the consumer (directly), and lord knows sellers are not going to lower prices based on payment method.
It depends, I have shopped at places where they will discount up to 15% by paying cash.
Yeah, there are a bunch of places around me that offer cash discounts which I make solid use of. Lets them lower prices for you as you aren’t forcing a credit card transaction fee onto them.
Sadly, this is probably true. Unless they’re trying to steer customers away from more troublesome payment providers.
sellers are not going to lower prices based on payment method
Mullvad actually does this for their VPN service, which I think is great. For a VPN company that doesn’t want to store identifiers about you, taking crypto makes sense because that also doesn’t necessarily have identifiers about you attached that they could read or be required to store, unlike a card that requires your name, address, and card number.
Other than that though, no larger companies are going to do anything of the sort, let alone be likely to even implement it as a payment method to begin with. Tons of additional technical complexity for little to no benefit.
I hope the EU to come up with their own payment process to compete against and be a mainstream alternative to the US based ones.
People who use credit cards don’t pay the transaction fee. If the product is priced at 10 Stanly nickle they only play 10 Stanley nickle. Lot of credit cards also offer cash back so people might get 1-5% back depending on what the category for the month is.
When it comes to transaction fees you are going to have to sell the vender on it than the consumer since they are the one paying.
Oh you’re definitely paying the credit card fee too, but since it’s the vendor who gets billed it’s just priced into the product. That’s why the product costs 10 Stanly nickle instead of 9 Stanly nickle.
Pay same in cash or credit. Priced in or not what the company asks for is what the consumer pays, so point being these crypto transaction arguments make no difference when it comes to fees. Like you said end retail price is already priced in.
Company wants 10 Stanley nickles consumer is charged 10 Stanley nickles regardless of payment method.
Yeah good point, they’re not discounting the credit increase for the crypto buyers. That might even be against their credit processor contract.
Pay same in cash or credit.
Depends on the vendor. There are a bunch of places around me that offer cash discounts, which I make solid use of. Lets them lower prices for you as you aren’t forcing a credit card transaction fee onto them.
But it’s not variable so the seller prices it in. Switch to Bitcoin and you have to pay it while prices likely stay the same. Also lately most of my games have been under 30 EUR tbh
yes I expect l2s to catch on in different ways and yes I hope that a lot of places like steam or whatever properly implement at least bitpay or something similar in house.
Lmao, crypto tech bros coming out of the woodwork trying to get popularity for their bag holder’s game…
Also pretending that shit hasn’t been bought up by wall street
What? They have like 5%. You should revisit your stance
Crypto remains a pyramid scheme masquerading as a resistance against tyranny
Ironically you know what ACTUALLY protects from powergrabs by payment processors? A fully centralised, government backed form of digital cash that is fully equivalent to paper money.
Ask a Brazilian about pix. Super low fees (often feeling non existant). And transactions can’t be invalidated on the whims of a corporate board. For something to not be buyable by pix it has to be illegal, thus having to go through every layer of checks and balances a democracy has.
The problem with visa and their ilk is that finance has been privatised. Too much power in the hands of corporations that have deftly dodged regulation that would keep them neutral and honest. Thinking privatising things further and turning everyone into a fully unregulated petty digital landlord is gonna solve anything rather than make it worse is foolhardy.
Adding a few more points to fully kill crypto as a “freedom currency”
- Generating crypto requires capital; people with computers and access to energy will instantly get the ability to outgenerate any other crypto participant
- Energy-centric currency just empowers the same rich lobbies; oil and gaz lobbies are delighted to see that there’s an uptick in energy demand
- People with right material (read, capital) can track you, but low chance to track anyone doing crime at a national level (due to odds of them having a competent IT (baring the Hegseth drunkards out there))
Also because the entire thing is backed financially by energy wasted, crypto has actually been slowing down the adoption of cheaper, safer renewable energy.
People spend x dollars on generating crypto, they expect to sell it for x+profit
Ergo if energy became cheaper, crypto would devalue and we can’t have that.
Mining hardware is the bigger cost for bitcoin. Tokens are the largest cost for PoS.
What keeps people from looking at point 1 and not totally stopping there, you think? The game is statistically unwinnable and the more rubes play, the bigger the leech gets.
I looked into crypto seriously several years ago when a friend got interested. I had to inform them it was still a casino where Have’s print the cash and make the rules, specifically so the currency returns to them with interest off someone else’s(our) brow. ie, same scam as wall street stonks. Just reiterating Point 1.
Pretty pointless unless there is an anti-fascist buying collective or something. Remember when reddit saved gamestop for a few years and, uh, very suddenly a lot of common investment apps ‘stopped working’ that week?
As soon as you get a hand in their game, they’ll show you right away you were meant to die slaving for them, not participating in decisionmaking (money AND politics).
“Difficulty adjustment” minimizes profits. You get a much higher return on the stock market than you do holding dollars.
I have an ignorant question: is gaz a French-Canadian spelling? I always thought it was Russian.
As far as I know it’s just french spelling, not limited to French-Canadian.
Your post applies to Bitcoin specifically, not crypto in general.
So according to you, there’s a crypto that 1. doesn’t need any capital (computers), 2. doesn’t need wastable energy (power that wouldn’t otherwise be used) and 3. is actually impossible to track across the board?
From a user perspective yes to all 3.
From a infrastructure perspective,
-
You need capital to keep people honest. Nothing at risk means people can lie
-
Some power is still needed, but Ethereum has gone from the consumption of Chile to a single windfarm.
-
ZK proofs now allow anyone to create an anonymous token. Most blockchains are opt in for anonymity.
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You’ve done it! You’ve fully killed Bitcoin! Now it will certainly become irrelevant! In 5 years, the top answer for “what would you do if you had a time machine and went back 5 years?” definitely won’t still be “Buy more Bitcoin.”
Have you heard of the lottery?
Whole-ass time travel to “buy more bitcoin”, what a clown.
Yeah but I don’t already know the winning lotto numbers
With time machine you can create the first lotto and be John Lotto himself
Of course cryptocurrencies will exist in the future. Same as simpler pyramid schemes, corruption, human trafficking, and banging your finger on a corner of a table. It’s not an indication of any positive quality of those things.
It’s Avon for Cis Dudes that make fun of Avon ladies
It’s the Lottery for STEM Majors that make fun of grandpas that play the lottery.
I’d say ‘it’s religion for reddit atheists’, but it’s not. AI is religion for reddit atheists. “
The raptureAGI is right around the corner and when it comes aroundGod will save the righteous and punish the sinnerswe will live in post-scarcity utopia. Just please ignore all thepriests committing horrid crimes on childrenactual AI copmanies being owned by technocrats with fascist leanings who seem very horny for the idea of never having to pay a worker again. Until then we just need topray and proselytize very hardkeep investing on DA FUTER”
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you know what ACTUALLY protects from powergrabs by payment processors? A fully centralised, government backed form of digital cash that is fully equivalent to paper money.
Only if the government is democratic, many governments seems to be autocratizing these days, which wouldn’t help when they start enacting puritan policies and refuse payment transfers. Not to mention, even some democracies banned porn (South Korea, for example).
You’re not wrong
But keeping a government democratic and under check is a lot easier than trying to do the same to a series of corporations with anonymous investors calling the shots. Every corporation is in and of itself a dictatorship, dangerously close to an old noble clan, and we pretend we don’t see it because it’s been hypernormalised.
I’d much rather take my chances with a government, that can in fact respond to the will of the people from time to time, than with a corporation that only ever responds to money with exactly no exceptions ever.
As far as I know monero didn’t really have that issue, of being a pyarmid scheme, while also being privacy-respecting way more than Bitcoin.
Which is also why it’s starting to get banned in Europe. As far as I know, most brokers don’t even sell it.
But I want to buy and sell illegal goods and services.
that’s what cash is for
Do I look like I’m cool enough for that‽
Sorry, the only illegal shit I do is free illegal shit (piracy)
WELL actually, it’s not illegal here in Brazil. It’s only a crime if you can be proven to be making money off of it. Downloading/copying is free game. :^)
When I heard elon is the primary holder of bit, I knew it was to be trusted. He’s a liar and insecure. Plus his penis looks like a sick dogs vomit.
Benefits of centralization: Someone can counteract harmful interactions.
Drawbacks of centralization: Someone can decide legitimate interactions are harmful.
It does suck when the “harmful interaction management system” goes haywire. But I’m not sure it sucks enough that I’d rather simply not have one.
I used to be one of the people firmly on the “someone can decide legitimate interactions are harmful, thus they should not ever exist” side of the argument, and I think this is certainly a good way of putting it.
For a lot of people heavily into crypto, they see the drawbacks of the existing system, but instead of pushing for reform and legal changes, they try technological abolition of the entire mechanism altogether, without then realizing the tradeoffs that brings (e.g. how a lot of people will go “it’s instant! Sellers don’t have to worry about chargebacks! Nobody can take away your money from you!” yet don’t think about how that also means a scammer taking your money is a permanent loss you can never reverse. (or if they do think about it, will argue that risk can be reduced to a point it is less harmful than the alternative, centralized companies)
I don’t deny crypto can be useful sometimes, or even be more beneficial when the centralized companies do eventually do something bad and people need an alternative payment mechanism, but I think a lot of people into crypto overestimate how beneficial it truly is compared to the tradeoffs.
About the “nobody can take your money” part.
Etherium Classic exists because somebody hacked an extremely valuable wallet and funneled 13% of all eth into their wallet. The people who control the mining pools, (rich assholes) wanted that transaction reversed, so they hard forked. Classic is the main fork that didn’t reverse that transaction. It’s much less popular, despite being run by people who are demonstrably more principled.
Paraphrased from Dan Olson’s video “line goes up” about crypto’s history and affect on the world. Spoiler: it’s a scam, and a tool for the wealthy to get even richer. Computing power can be bought with dollars.
Technically true, but chains nowadays aren’t really vulnerable to that same kind of attack just due to their sheer scale and diversification of controlling stakes compared to what they used to be, so I wouldn’t consider it a particularly relevant issue today.
The relevant part isn’t which mistake happened, but that the fact that no mistake can be reversed.
Fixing one mistake is great and all, but it’s still a method of accounting whose ledger — by design — cannot be revised.
Yeah it’s a personal level of comfort sort of thing. Some people value one side of the equation while some people value the other side. Strong case for vendors accepting both cards and crypto instead of just one.
you can prevent getting scammed with crypto by using something like escrow
Doesn’t protect against:
- Social engineering
- Contract code vulnerabilities
- Untrustworthy/Compromised controlling stakes in that escrow, whether they be people or autonomous systems
- False reversal claims made against the escrow
It has the same possible issues for your financial sovereignty as a regular, centralized financial institution, plus technical issues with the way the underlying infrastructure is built.
valid points. i see the problem with that
Isn’t this a right wing meme about centrists, but with the text changed?
The Bitcoin side wouldn’t catch you, because that interferes with the user’s choice to hit the ground.
Perhaps the original is right-wing, though this happens a lot (e.g. the “change my mind” guy). This meme seems anti-collective shout, so I’d place it left wing.
Sure, lets replace a regulated scam with an unregulated scam, that will solve things /s
Whaaaaaa, are you talking about bitcoin, the currency developed out of pure kindness and honest intentions and promising equality and equity for all? Surely you can’t mean the grand and noble bitcoin, I was told for years that it would decentralize all currency and make all our wildest dreams come true. Any day now.
(Unless it conflicts with the predictions for AI, that it will provide equality and equity for all and decentralize skill, talent and knowledge and make all our wildest dreams come true.)
Credit card companies should be nonprofits under democratic control.
Could’ve would’ve should’ve
So many things could be so much better.
Poverty could end tomorrow if we wanted to.
War could end tomorrow if we wanted to
Healthcare could be free if we wanted to
Same for schools and education in general
“If we wanted to”
Let me rephrase that: if either the top 1% would let us, or if the 99% would just stand up and take what’s theirs, we could…
Euro has PSD2 which seems to be a step in the right direction
Isn’t that kind of what a credit union issued card is?
Cash is King.
I’m in Germany and people believe this. I say, if I have my credit card stolen, I can stop the card with my bank app and be refunded for the purchases the thief made.
If they have their 500€ of cash stolen, that’s it. It’s gone. No amount of crying about how cash is king will bring it back.
You are only considering half the issue. If you manage to “aquire” 500 in cash…
So then don’t carry 500 in cash then. You only need enough cash in your wallet to cover the expenses you might encounter in a single day. And having cash on you doesn’t mean you can’t have cards too in case you need more money
So less king and more part of a council?
Yeah, something like that. Maybe cash should be the chair of the council
And Monero is digital cash
Cash is dead deserped from its place by alternative means far before we invented crypto
And those alternatives would be what, exactly?
Checks and credit The US hasn’t been backed by hard currency since the mid-60s. Once we moved off the gold standard, it all became Fiat based on exchange rates
So you don’t actually understand what the phrase “cash is king” really means.
A paper check is not cash. A credit score is not cash. Physical backed up currency in your hand is cash. And I don’t think you can get cash anymore. Only Fiat
And guess what cash doesn’t need to actually work, unlike credit, checks and crypto.
An economy?
If by mid-60s you mean 1971…?
I seem to have gotten the beginning of the process and the final cutoff date. Confused. That would be the cutoff date, not when they started to restrict the ability to convert
Crypto is to peacocking men what MLMs is to american housemoms.
A lot of crypto relies on greater fools, but not all of it.
You’re right. Those who scam everybody else get to really benefit from crypto. Much like MLMs.
Bitcoin bros are acting like little pushed around victims now?
I think this is bit what the post is trying to say.
A few days ago, visa and MasterCard forced steam to stop selling some games they didn’t like, and is not the first time. For many of us (I’m not a bitcoiner nor a crypto bro, my entire crypto wallet is 1usd) the first thought was “this is ridiculous. They have a duopoly so they get to decide the rules of the internet. This can be solved with crypto to remove all the unnecessary middlemen”. I felt the push. It reignited my interest in the tech and am once again seeing what’s out there, fees, and transaction times looking for a good balance
Needlessly antagonistic interpretation presented not for good faith discussion but for your own fragile emotional needs. Reap what you sow.
Trying so hard to sound smart, just like a bitcoin bro
I can dumb it down if you want.
what
Crypto grifters trying to capitalize on the payment processor censorship drama (by portraying it as pushing people towards crypto)
Which is funny because many crypto people don’t spend it like currency because to them it is another asset they hope rises in value like stocks to get rich like the early bitcoin holders. And it’s why many if they spend it go and rebuy the same amount to not get spenders remorse in the future spending what could have been a house on a video game.
Now I know the decentralized value of crypto and the tech is cool. Just more sick of the overall greedy culture around it of people wanting to get rich quick off it, but masquerading around as though they actually care about the tech or are anti-capitalist. When it really is just about trying to get rich.
Steam and itch have had to remove porn games because Mastercard and Visa don’t like them
Not even that. It was because a disingenuous psychopath raised a big stink to the payment processors that Steam and itch rely on. As long as they want to process payments they unfortunately need the companies and have to appease them. The best thing we could do is raise a bigger opposite stink.
I think the best thing we can do is create long-term alternatives. But I do think that the most reasonable, effective, productive thing we can do is to just collectively harass the credit card companies harder than some outspoken religious nuts do to prevent them from caving to censorship demands.
Yeah I don’t understand the meme
Crypto is still a scam.
Bitcoin is not crypto
it’s literally called a “cryptocurrency”.
Yes but they are still very different things.
only if you change the definition of “crypto”.
Many would argue that there needs some distinction between them. The ongoing joke is “Shitcoin” as many have abandoned the benefits of bitcoin.
Wtf are you talking about??? Bitcoin is THE cryptocurrency.
Last time I checked, BTC transaction fees were prohibitively high to pay for 80$ AAAA games with them, and WAY too high to pay for a 5 USD single-developer itch.io game.
I haven’t looked at other Crypto in a while. I made some money off BTC, but I think it is wildly overvalued for a long time, and I’ve been disappointed in how un-currency-like other alternatives were, even those that have been around long enough that they are unlikely to be rug-pulls.
That said, if you need to get paid and Visa/MC won’t let you use them, I’m not going to attack you (too hard) for accepting Crypto. They are bad systems, but we live in Captialism, so you gotta get paid. They might be the least-worse system that is global and isn’t Visa/MC. I’m unlikely to buy your product that way, tho; I’m more likely to pirate than I am to participate in cryptocurrency again.
The insane thing about Bitcoin’s continued popularity is that out of all the thousands of cryptocurrencies out there, it’s easily the worst in every regard.
I’m not going to name names for fear of being called a shill, but if you want a cryptocurrency for just buying stuff there’s a ton that are more stable, faster, don’t cost a fortune to process, and don’t destroy the planet.
It dominates because it’s the one that everyone knows. If you’re lucky enough to find a shop that accepts crypto it’s almost certain that the crypto they accept is bitcoin and bitcoin only. despite its flaws it is a proven technology. It might 3 hours to send an on chain payment but you don’t have to worry about a technical glitch dropping it.
I somewhat agree about it being not great though. it has serious scalability issues that were supposed to be addressed by lightning but lightning adds a lot of complexity imo. My grandma is never going to be able to figure out how to use lightning whilst still being able to benefit from a self custody wallet.
A lot of the newer coins that crypto bros bang on about seem to be centralized under private entities, “regulation friendly” and not distributed.
Bitcoin’s transfer fees alone are huge. It’s over $1 USD now for any transfer, and it will get much worse.
I remember launching my wallet that I hadn’t touched for years and I was hit with many days of syncing. It basically had to download gigabytes of data about blockchain since the last time I touched the wallet. I was blown away by the inefficiency and resource usage for seemingly simple things
And it’s not even close to private.
i wouldn’t be suprised if even Dogecoin works better that Bitcoin. then again monero is the most private
It’s because the vast majority of people “into crypto” have no interest in the actual underlying asset. They’re just hoping to get rich. I honestly think it destroys any potential crypto had. It’s a shame because it would be good to have an alternative to credit cards for digital transactions, and especially to have a push payment method, as opposed to the pull method used by banks and credit cards
That’s the beauty of crypto, there’s flavour for everyone
